(((is pack social structure canine pop-psy or a reality?)))

[Nico]

Hi everyone. I am about to pick up a female DS puppy in two weeks and have a ton of questions. I haven't had a dog in years and am now older and want to approach this in a whole new way. I am being very conscientious of how I train the dog. I want to start right away and make sure the Cola (that's her name) starts off on the right foot, or paw or what have you. I was accustomed to the theory that dogs lived "naturally" in hierarchical pack structures, where there is one pack leader who asserts dominance over the group. I may be wrong but am assuming that this is the conventional way of thinking of dogs and that it informs training quite a bit; as I have read a number of times that the dog owner should assert themselves as "pack leader". However as I delve deeper, I have become aware of conflicting points of view. Some folks say that the pack hierarchy is a dynamic wrongly projected onto canine kind. I read, probably at two in the morning with aching eyes, that these theories are derived from improperly conducted studies of wolves during the late 1800's (hope I am remembering this info accurately). At times it can be difficult to separate fact from fiction on the web so I wanted to reach out to you all and see what your opinions were on the subject.
To clarify a bit further, the reason I am asking this is because I think it will have a big bearing on how it is I end up training Cola or at least how it is I consider the things that she does. I want to be able to distinguish what is aggression or "dominant behavior" from exuberance. At the end of the day I am the human, and control the resources, but I want Cola to have the chance to just be a dog sometimes if that is what she is indeed doing.

Thanks

[Christie M]

Hey Nico!

I think you know my take on it, but I will summarize and let everyone else chime in. I think there is a social hierarchy, but I think it has been made WAY TOO simplistic and people assume that their dog's think they are human or vice versa. For me, it all comes down to behaviors. I want to see certain behaviors and I don't want to see others. Those I want to see, are rewarded - either specifically or though access to resources. Those I don't, are either corrected or any access to reward is withheld.

I believe that by trying to stick to a strict wolf pack mentality (which has been disproven) we limit the ways in which we interact with our dogs. So I believe in resource control - but not based on dominance. Based on the fact that if they learn that the only way they get things they need/want is by offering good behaviors, then they look for more and more reasons to do so. I think that by "picking" dominance fights you prove yourself as only a bully - to be dealt with as such. Most dogs (think children) will back off and give you what you want. Some will ignore the situation entirely. A few will speak up and win the fight against a bully. I am only 4 ft 11in. Although I don't know for sure that I would loose a fight with a serious dog, I know that I don't ever want to pick one if I can handle smarter and not harder.

Even in the wolf pack society that does really exist, a dominant animal rarely has to work hard to maintain position. It would waste too many calories to do so. They are confident, use body language and save strength. They control the masses my controlling access to resources.

BTW - welcome!!!

[felixone123]

I love what you wrote Christie, especially, "smarter not harder"!!

[Christie M]

Come on guys! Nico didn't join to hear my opinion of things. He gets that with out asking I should have waited before posting. Chime in and give your thoughts on pack structure and how it effects your relationship with you DS.

[Dutchringgirl]

Ok, Ill give my 2c. For example, if the dogs want to go outside, they must sit at the door and wait for the release comand. The sooner they respond the way I want, the sooner they can go out, If they keep lifting their butts, they wait. Same with food, They sit, I put the bowl down, they must wait ( and make eye contact) before I release them, the longer they stand or look around, the longer they wait to eat.

Cola sits, treat ( or toy),... stays, treat.., waits for bowl and release, eat.... While at the dinner table, the girls stay in their spots and cant get up until I say.

They want something from you, they must do what you ask, after they learn what you are asking of course.

[vneerland]

Pack structure is not fiction. I believe it to be true. But they way it has been interpreted or applied is probably for a large part wrong.
To clarify: I have a large pack of mostly brindles. I do not have to work hard, at all, to keep them in line. Even newcomers (dogs here for training) comply without me having to push too many buttons: they copy the other dogs behavior of compliance. The secret is not that I roll everyone into submission (I don't believe in that!) but that I control both the pack leaders (the ones ranked under me, if you will) and everyone else in the pack. There is only fair play. Teach the rule. Always enforce it. Even a simple command does not go ignored. If it does, I am after you (verbally) If that does not help, we can up the bid. For example: Come here always means come here. I can repeat it, (but don't like to) but I'd best not see the dog running the other way or flat ignore it. Sit means sit, stay means stay, etc etc. To balance all that out, they absolutely get to do the thing that many pet-trainers would cringe about. Bolt out the door (I don't care) Sit on my lap on the couch(I enjoy it) get food from my plate (If decide to share) That does not mean that those would not be good rules. If someone wants to enforce that (no bolt, no food, no couch) absolutely go for it! I just meant to say that there is no black and white division of what you should or should not accept. Pick your own rules, and always, always be consistent in enforcing those. There are no questions about who calls the shots with my pack and they are all well balanced and confident dogs. I do not assert dominance over the hard core dogs (my police k9's) but rather respectfully request full cooperation. If serious arguments arise, though, they all know that I am crazier than bat s*** and that I will back it up. It has not been necessary for a long time. Thank goodness.

[leih merigian]

What Judith said

Pack structure is not fiction...Pick your own rules, and always, always be consistent in enforcing those.

I think this is the bottom line.

I get nuts about people that think there is only one way to own a dog, one way to structure its life; alpha rolls are the way to go, etc.