Hello from Wyoming

[DebLundy]

Looking forward to readung and learning from the more experienced DS folks in this forum. I am beginning to research several similar breeds and appreciate your sharing stories, training methods, what to look for in a DS and what to avoid at all costs. I currently have two elder Jack Russells (Comet - 14 and Divot - 12) and two young-ish Labs (Skeet - 5 and Bruin - 4). My Dutch Shepherd would most likely be an only dog due to its need for exercise and training. Thanks for a great site where we new folks may be introduced to the reality of living with this dynamic brred.

[Schlussdibusti]

Welcome to the forum

[johninny]

welcome.
are the 2 labs going somewhere?

[johninny]

welcome.
are the 2 labs going somewhere?

[DebLundy]

No John -- my Labs are here to stay. I start my research early! Bruin has Canine Epileptoid Cramping Syndrome -- he has seizures that seem to be stress induced. It is genetic. Hoping for another ten years, but can never be sure. Skeet is really my son's dog, but hangs out with Bruin. Both Labs are wonderful, and are well suited to my husband and son, but I like a more intense relationship with my dogs. I am still thinking about another Jack Russell, but the more I read about the DS the more attractive I find them. I am here to make sure I am suitable for the breed.

[Revhendo]

I had a GSD mix some thirty years ago that had seizures. Man, that was nerve wracking. Not everyone is made for a DS, nor is a DS for everyone. They are definitely an intense breed, but more importantly, they are a smart breed. Very smart. Kudos for doing the homework first. I'm still a GSD type of guy, but I couldn't imagine my life without my Dinga Roo and there won't be a day in my life without a DS.

[DebLundy]

Bruin stays completely present while undergoing a seizure -- he is "just" completely immobile. The first one was very scary, but having done the research on the ailment, I am better able to keep him calm and feeling safe while the seizures occur. Charting them has given me a pretty good predictor for the seizure occurrence. He really does best when things are calm and predictable. Don't we all? The breeds I am considering are the German Shepherd Dog, the Belgian Malinois, and the Dutch Shepherd. I am leaning toward the DS because I wonder if I am ready for the very high drive Malinois and worry about the mental and physical integrity of the very popular GSD. I have thought about contacting the CherCar kennels as the time gets closer (if they are still breeding at that time) as they have GSDs, Mals, DS, and Jack Russells. They may be able to help me narrow down the field. Thanks for welcoming me aboard!

[johninny]

i have had only DS because of the intense relationship made possible by the intelligence and personality - like a person in a dog outfit but obsessed with you. my first [ and only dog for 12 1/2 years ] dog died last summer; he had been a stray direct to me in nyc . [ see most recent ''in memorium'' posting for some insight into his relationship skills.] 5 more DS since august '12, 4 of which have been rescues [ kept 2 of them ] and the last of which is from Chercar, born may 4. he was chosen for me by Cheryl as the most likely in the litter to develop the intense personal relationship with me [ way beyond the obsession with their person thing ] that my first dog had, i.e., no consideration at all given to sport or protection [tho i expect neither he nor my 1st would be slouches in those areas]. he was 1 of 2 puppies in the litter that she felt had the best chance of rising to the particular [ and peculiar ] needs that i presented.

[DebLundy]

Hi John -- your posts about your dogs and, more importantly, your relationship with them, are realy giving me insight into the GS. The more I read, the more I like them. I worked with an "aggressive" DS in our local shelter and found him to be incredibly athletic, fun-loving and intense. He seemed to be able to look into my soul. He needed a strong handler, but one who treated him with respect and kindness. He learned everything quickly and really wanted to be a good dog. Had I been in a position to give him a home I would have. In your opinion, on the whole, do DS prefer to be an only dog or do they prefer other dog playmates? I know each individual is different but there are some breeds that arre more of a"pack" dog and some that really need individual attention. Any thoughts?

[johninny]

thank you. glad i can add something for you.
frankly, i do not know w/r/t your only-dog question. i do not even feel i have much insight into the matter, but i will relate my experiences and maybe in the process i will discover that i may know something.

my first DS [ TraceDog ] was unusual even for a DS - and there was no point at which he would have been thrilled with another dog in the house, though it would probably have worked if he had been introduced to a pre-existing dog. he was completely dog friendly unless there was a hint of aggression and he loved playing with good friends and had no problem meeting new dogs, but his interest was limited; a point would arrive - sometimes remarkably quickly even with best friends - where he had enough dog interaction and he would become aloof and tell me it was time to move on. he never once showed any jealousy of me being physically close and friendly with other dogs - he could not have cared less. sharing the household was a different matter. even if he had allowed it [????], it would have crushed him emotionally - i have no doubt about that though explaining why would be so complex and difficult as he was from the start almost some extraordinary extension of myself - an avatar with his own personality.

i think the new pup from Chercar [ Tracer ] might be similar, though he has been thrust into a household with 2 pre-existing dogs. i have been thankful that they are here to exhaust him and keep him occupied and he loves playing with them [ or should i say molesting them? ]. but i think i see the same aloofness in him that TD had; i think he would gladly trade away their company for exclusivity with me. he often hangs back with me, always stays close and attentive despite distractions, and aside from his housemates has yet to give the time-of-day to a single dog [ which goes far beyond TD in aloofness; TD would put on a great show of enthusiasm for a brief time and then cut off the show abruptly.].

on the other hand, i have had 2 dogs that show overt NEED for my attention [ unlike TD and Tracer who were/are not at all cuddly or needy ], but also seem depressed without the company of another dog. the first of those was a 7 year old rescue [ i was the foster ] who had known no company his entire life other than his litter-mate brother who had just died. Cain loved me and within a day it was like he had lived his entire life in a house and with his person [ rather than in 1 yard day-in and day-out for 7 years]. [ he did not even know words like go-out, treat, dinner, walk, etc., which suggests almost no human contact, but learned language quickly with me.] the problem was there was no joy at all in this dog except when he got to be with a dog and i had no other dog just after TD's death. clearly though, Cain's desire/need to live with another [1] dog is self-explanatory. another dog [ Sakima ] rescued at 7 months old [ and i was his first person after a very rough start in life ] seems more content, more at ease in the company of dogs; only in the company of other dogs [ unless there is a garden hose involved ] does he show total abandon in his embrace of joy. i think indoors he might prefer that his roommates were not around, that he did not have to share me so much, but on balance he is happier living with another dog. [ and there is probably not a dog in the world he would not embrace as a friend - no intro needed! he would be the most perfect dog-park dog imaginable.]

2 other dogs - Xander from KY and TeXan [ Xander from TX ] - i think would be neutral about sharing the household though, if wrong about their neutrality, i think the tendency of each would be a desire for only-dog status as both are very, very observant of my thoughts and wants and both want to cuddle and be close without being needy [ like Saki is needy ]. but with respect to other dogs, the 2 could not be more different. Xander [ ky ] was dog reactive [ at the least needed careful intro to a new dog ] but seemed to love having Saki to play with. Xan and Saki both arrived home for the first time on the same car trip, so neither had seniority or prior claim. contrary to KY Xander, there is not a dog on earth that TeXan would not try to be friends with and he would probably accept additional dogs into the house even now, but he might be happier having an intense one-on-one with me and being very social with people and dogs whenever given the chance.

i will think about this more and see if a conclusion occurs to me, but it would be interesting to hear from others. the problem is that most of them revel in the company of other DS [ if not other dogs in general ], but extrapolating that joy of sharing time with their brothers into a conclusion that they PREFER housemates is not so easy.

[LyonsFamily]

In your opinion, on the whole, do DS prefer to be an only dog or do they prefer other dog playmates? I know each individual is different but there are some breeds that arre more of a"pack" dog and some that really need individual attention. Any thoughts?

I thought I'd weigh in on this as well. Odin was an only dog for about a year, then we moved in temporarily with my parents while waiting on our house to close. They have 4 dogs. Odin enjoyed their company and would walk through the gardens with them and relax at night, but he really liked his solitude and hanging out with me and my husband was much more important. He also got annoyed with their antics and would walk away. With those dogs, I think he would've preferred to just visit them occasionally to play and explore together and not live with them 24/7. Given the choice, he would leave them for humans in a heartbeat.

At the end of July I got a female Dutch Shepherd, Elli, and they are perfect for each other. Elli came from a foster home with 7 dogs and her adoption ad read "single dog home needed" "does not like living with other dogs," with hints from her foster mom of her being dog aggressive. I agreed to foster her to see how it would go. She has none of those problems here. Odin was labelled as dog selective by his foster mom and they're like a band of misfits that became best friends. If we take them anywhere together, they try to play the entire time. I've never seen Odin so content before.

I think matching similar behaviors and play styles is very important. I would only ever get another DS or a Malinois at this point, due to my experience with Odin and Elli and the other dogs they've been around.

[johninny]

COMPLETELY agree with Stephanie. there is a definite preference for their own kind; this was true for all my dogs to such a degree that i think it is just a given with this breed. they act very differently with their own than they do with others, regardless of each dog's attitude to dogs in general. TD could recognize and exude warmth toward a ds/mal a block away - he always knew even with dog strangers at great distance [ to the extent that i could tell from his behavior/mood that a DS/mal/mix was in the area!].
my 3 pups have gone for morning walks on the beach the last 3 weeks with 10 - 20 other dogs; all 3 have given special recognition and taken into their pack one of these dogs who is said to be a coyote/american indian dog mix [??]. in any case, this dog is very primal and within seconds of seeing him they recognized him as one of their own. saki and texan treat the other dogs as occasional entertainment or interactive toys [ and tracer tries to ignore them], but they share thoughts and their pack space with the faux coyote.
so it the joy of sharing the same intellectual approach to the world around them that means that DS will be by far the most happy and content with another DS/Mal.

[DebLundy]

Thank you all so much for weighing in! These are exactly the types of responses that I would never be able to find anywhere else (Wikipedia just can't keep up with reality). You generosity with your observations is so helpful. Whereas my Labs adore each other I doubt that a young serious DS would be a good match for a goofy and ageing Labrador, and I doubt a DS and any type of terrier would mix well. And, I feel compelled to add that I LOVE the dogs I have, and have the close relationship I seek with Divot, I still want the almost telepathic relationship I was starting to have with the DS in the shelter before he was sent to the K9 School in Colorado. My fear is that I am being foolish considering this type of dog temperament when I am pushing the south side of sixty. Fortunately, I am not an impulsive type when it comes to life changing (both for me and a pup) decisions -- there Dutch Shepherds and Malinois doing demonstrations at an event last weekend. I told my friend -- and the Shelter Manager -- to keep repeating you do not need a DS right now . . . I think I will keep listening and learning, and when the time comes trust a breeder to tell me the truth about such a match. Enjoying a dog for a couple of hours once a week is a far cry from living with one. Fifteen years can be far too short or far too long. I would prefer to cry at the end than sigh with relief. Every dog deserves someone to love them for who they are -- quirks and all -- mine do, and always will.

[johninny]

the word you used - telepathic - was perfect for how TD and i operated together. doubt that that is possible with any breed beyond DS/Mal. reading your last post, adopting a youngish DS might be perfect for you when you are ready. get past the crazy puppy stage and know what you are getting - one you can handle and one that is more interested in a telepathic conversation with you than exercising some other typical DS behaviors.

[LyonsFamily]

Do you have any dog clubs in the area with members that have mals/DS or even better any breed specific clubs? Perhaps the dogs/handlers from the demos are from one. If you can find a club, you might be able to volunteer as a handler to work and train someone's extra dog. I know personally, I'd love an extra hand with training, especially at matches when both dogs are in the same class and I need to coordinate group exercises and who's taking who. This might give you a chance to get your DS fix, but not have to commit to the home life.

[DebLundy]

Hi Stephanie --

The group in Jackson, Wyoming with the DS and Malinois are from Snake River K9s -- a private business training and selling protection dogs. They also train GSDs. They had been in Kenya and sell protection trained dogs with very high price tags. I did like one handler -- he was with a female DS -- who gave me this explanation of the three breeds: He said that although all three dog breeds want to be with their people, he notices the presence of the DS the least. He asked if that made sense to me, and I said that the GSD would be nudging your arm for attention, the Mal would be dropping toys in your lap for more stimulation and the DS would be there waiting for your next direction. He said I sounded more like a DS-type of person than a Mal and with my misgivings about finding a sound GSD and my experience with the young dog in the shelter, I decided to learn from those who live with these guys all the time and joined this forum. Snake River K9s currently has all breed training but I don't really have a dog at this point that would benefit from the intensive program they promote. They are a good resource in the future in terms of looking at dogs and having a local facility with trainers who understand the breed. I have not looked into local-ish clubs that might pursue high level obedience or PSA-type training. There is an agility club, and I used to train in flyball (still have the equipment). There is also a herding community somewhere close as the Eastern Idaho State Fair has a large group of contestants. I know that if I can drive an hour and a half to go to Home Depot, and to volunteer at a therapeutic riding organization, I can do the same to provide the stimulation a friend needs. I also like the idea of looking at older pups, and working through rescue. Are there many DS lines that have health issues that may crop up in rescue that a breeder will have tested their breeding stock to eliminate? Maybe I should take these questions to the "Whatever" forum as I am getting some terrific information that would be of benefit to others . . . Thanks again for your willingness to help with my questions.

[Asha]

60 is the new 40

[DebLundy]

Thank you Emily . . .