Wish us luck!

[Raven]

Even with the scant information you posted earlier today, ever since then something wasn't adding up in my head. I've had a few thoughts, and a couple are: a neurological disorder or some type of pain-illicited aggression.

He is communicating something....

[Dutchringgirl]

It would be good to hear the events and the trigger.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

I agree. May be medical. You know the look of your dog when he goes, "whoops, was that me?" versus honest "WTF is happening?" If you feel like he was honestly confused, and there was nothing happening to distract him or confuse him during the episode, so therefore nothing to have him switching back and forth and looking confused during, then perhaps it is something more than just behavior. Maybe something is happening underneath the fear aggression? Just a thought. Either way we are with you and hope you can come to a resolution with Delco. We're pulling for you. (hugs)

[Mobil]

He has looked confused about his behavior since he first started showing fear aggression. He has had a medical workup with no evident problems, but nothing like xrays. Just blood/fecal tests and exams. the behaviorist thinks it's a pretty textbook progression of escalation and after his assessment, found him to be overly protective of me in all situations, even when I don't need protecting.

What happened was this: I finished cleaning out the library for Delco yesterday, and in the meantime, he and Mobil were gated in the kitchen. I had the kids treat him every time they went past the kitchen. When the kids were outside playing, if he was outside, he was muzzled, if he was inside, I had the kitchen gated and he was on the other side in the house. (He got lots of exercise and went on two walks yesterday. )

We did door work. I left a bag of treats outside, and when the kids came in, they treated him over the gate. (he was muzzled). He did the usual growl/bark until he saw them, except the second time Ricky (3)came in, he growled, then as Ricky got closer to the gate (I was on the other side of the gate with the dogs), it turned into snarling/spitting/snorting. I told him to just toss the treat and walk back outside. It hit the gate and bounced back, and while I was telling him to just leave it and go, he was bending over to retrieve the treat (because 3 year olds are assholes who don't listen) and despite my hand on Delco's collar, he lunged his head over the gate and snapped at him.
When he couldn't get Ricky, he turned on Mobil, who was right next to him. I gated him back in the library to calm down. Now if he even sees Ricky, he starts growling and making moves toward him.

I told all this to his behaviorist, and this is what she said:

For now, I would keep Delco confined away from your children at all times and discontinue behavior modification exercises. Safety is always my number one priority. Utilize the muzzle in addition to confinement if there is any concern of Delco not respecting a gate as confinement. Euthanasia is reasonable to consider. One might also consider rehoming Delco to an experienced, adult only, rural home. I will contact you tomorrow when I return to the office.

[LyonsFamily]

Are you going to MSU as in Michigan State? Are you in Michigan?

[Mobil]

that's right. I live about in the middle between Lansing and Flint.

[Raven]

Only have a second, so right now I'll just mention: don't reward an unacceptable behavior with a treat. (If I read the gate/kid scenerio correctly.) I'd asked earlier in a post: at what age did you get Delco....

[Mobil]

this isn't rewarding unacceptable behavior, though. this is conditioning Delco to accept that good things come from someone coming in the door, as well as good things come from little kids. Like clicker training. Door, treat, kid, treat, repeat.

Sorry I missed the other question, I've had Delco since the end of March. He's somewhere around one and a half.

[Dutchringgirl]

Raven got there first ! LOL If He makes any aggression sounds, NO reward! He has to be quiet to get the treat. I understand the thinking of having the kids treat him so he sees them as food dispensers, but what he is learning is that he is being rewarded for growling at them. It would be like me treating Sadie for jumping on people so she wont be afraid of them. I am rewarding the jump, not the happy ending.

I would also have him on a leash attached to you at all times. If I am incorrect with this thinking, someone can let me know. I know he is protecting you, but if he is with you at ALL times, you have more time to help him and show him that he can relax. I would keep him away from Mobil at all times for now so when he is frustrated and cant get his aggression out on someone, he wont turn to him and go after him.

If he is in a penned area, I would have one child, walk back and forth, no treat, over and over an over until he is just watching them walk by with no sounds, then he can have a treat, then again and again. Also, how are the kids approaching him? They should be super calm and quiet and walk to him slooooooooow and treat him sloooooooooly. By throwing a treat, i am sure their body language is screaming fear, and he will read that and react off of that.

I would also not have him outside with the kids when they are playing if you cant be there. If he is really just confused, that may not be a good place for him. I would have kept him in the library with you where you can be with him, talk to him, and where the kids are not playing and have him in quiet places.

[Mobil]

Raven got there first ! LOL If He makes any aggression sounds, NO reward! He has to be quiet to get the treat. I understand the thinking of having the kids treat him so he sees them as food dispensers, but what he is learning is that he is being rewarded for growling at them. It would be like me treating Sadie for jumping on people so she wont be afraid of them. I am rewarding the jump, not the happy ending.

What you have to understand is that this is not basic dog/obedience training. this is counter conditioning and I'm following the directions of an experienced, highly regarded veterinary behaviorist who has evaluated Delco and knows exactly what I'm dealing with.

I would also not have him outside with the kids when they are playing if you cant be there. If he is really just confused, that may not be a good place for him. I would have kept him in the library with you where you can be with him, talk to him, and where the kids are not playing and have him in quiet places.

Of course I don't leave him outside with the children while they play! I certainly didn't mean to give that impression. Any time he is where the children are, he is muzzled and I am there.

I appreciate all the advice, I do. I am not unfamiliar with training dogs. Delco is a different case requiring different methods, and I trust the behaviorist when she tells me that we need to start this way and move from there doing this or this.

[Raven]

I know we're side-liners here...just trying to help, is all.

You don't know his background, yes? Not sure how to say what I'm thinking...but I'll give it a go....Especially with unknown backgrounds, a one-size-fits-all approach/program sometimes isn't going to work, but rather can be a starting place. ("Oops, this didn't work, so what does that tell us" kind of thing.) I am in no way trying to question the approach of this behaviorist...just thinking of different scenarios I've been in. I listen to animals, what they're telling ME, and I've had experts make suggestions that were the one-size-fits-all/be-all-end-all approach that didn't work. They ended up, at best, a tool. Success didn't come from them.

There's lots of action around your house with the kids. If kids are new to him, this can certainly be part of the equation.If they aren't new to him, perhaps he had bad experiences and/or was never socialized.

His role/position in the house isn't clear. I'm not entirely sure, in a new relationship, especially with a fear-aggressive dog, if he is "protecting" you.

And, respectfully, I don't agree that OB/training isn't part of reconditioning an aggressive dog. The reinforcements from you that accompany training add confidence to a fearful dog, and to all dogs give boundaries, a sense of what is expected of them...rules to follow. They feel safer that way.

[Mobil]

I wasn't trying to imply that obedience training doesn't have *any* part of reconditioning a dog... I'm only speaking to Delco's specific situation and what we are doing as of right now, right off the bat, to see what clicks with him. Regular dominance type methods have already been tried and exacerbated his behavior. Rewarding positive behavior has been tried and it's not *quite* enough, so I think she's having us start from the bottom and work up. She's very much tailoring her approach based on both his specific behaviors, and what we've done up until now and their results, rather than a one size fits all method.

I'm apparently not conveying it very well, my apologies. I'm tired and stressed and I can't brain.

And again, thank you for your thoughts and advice, I do appreciate it and it helps.

[Dutchringgirl]

It is hard sometimes to clearly get across just in words what goes on or what we mean. I can totally get the stress and tired dosnt help.

[Raven]

Hey! Speak for yourselves! I convey exactly what I mean in a clear, concise manner every time I open my mouth or hit the keyboard because this beautiful mind always operates at maximum capacity.

[Dutchringgirl]

Hey! Speak for yourselves! I convey exactly what I mean in a clear, concise manner every time I open my mouth or hit the keyboard because this beautiful mind always operates at maximum capacity.

[HeatherH]

Hi

Here's my 2 cents for whatever it's worth I have not ready over everybody’s. I'm way too lazy. Which why you'll give change back.

If you rule out health issues and family member changes. Bringing a cute puppy in to the family will change dynamics and you don't even think about it. Dog pyramid top down Delco was first. People mess that up. Dogs get that order which is why if you leave them alone they know what they are doing.

Having said that. I'm the alpha dog. You get that wrong you will be my shadow so I can watch you. I will put you on a tether on my belt a you will have muzzle and your food will be given to you it will be taken away after 15 minutes till you get it. I mean business. Growl ok, snap and you will put in your create. You will play when I say. You will stop when you’re told. Period.

When you start playing nice you will gain for freedom. Positive behaviours get rewarded. Bad behaviour you'll be sitting at my feet allll the time.

I've never had a problem when everyone knows the rules.

I was probably a bastille guard in an earlier life.

Heather

[Mobil]

Thanks for your input. Been there, done that, bought the t shirt. Turns out that was a dangerous method for this dog.

Also, he's fine with the puppy, aside from the incident the other day, which was obviously him channeling his frustration at a bad situation elsewhere. They are now closely monitored when they are together.

[johninny]

the quote of dutchringgirl referencing Raven about treats for bad behavior -- then referring to the PLAN of your advisor: if the plan really is to have the child treat the dog upon entry no matter what the circumstances, then you might as well give up now. you should do the treating, as a child clumsily conveying a treat [ as in fear, throwing, etc., with no pre-conditions] does more harm than good, i.e., if i growl at the little one, he will rudely throw something that tastes good at me. alternate: child comes in the door, dog growls, you gently say ''no-no, it's OK, good [name of child]'', maybe a re-assuring, calming hand rubbing on neck; if and when he relaxes, maybe knowing that there is a treat waiting for him, then he can get the treat respectfully given to him directly by your hand, saying ''good relax'', good quiet, or whatever word for that good state of mind that you have chosen.

if indeed, the same advisor recommended ''dominant'' methods that backfired and is now recommending - if accurately interpreted - the method of child-delivered treats that you described, then i would really at the least pass her advise through dutchringgirl, raven and ownedbyhendrix here for adjustment before proceeding. and maybe lyonsfamily has some helpful advice - which would definitely be worth following.
not everyone here is very knowledgeable- many have arrived here in circumstances similar to your own and are working through issues - but you are fortunate to be getting attention from people who have had great success and experience with super-smart shepherds. their only impediment is not being there directly; whereas your trainer also is not IN your house and seems to lack an understanding of this level of canine intelligence/mindset.

but i am also tempted to say look to see if there is a private, high-quality SHEPHERD rescue operation in the region that is equipped to rehabilitate and re-home him before he becomes more damaged if there is not the time to do this right. with small children it can be even more difficult if not all done perfectly, which so far it has not. [ i.e., i am saying this may be the best course before it simply becomes too late for Delco.] this is probably also affecting Mobil. the intelligence of both these dogs - especially Mobil!! - rules out old-fashioned training methods that simply cause resentment to fester. an atmosphere of respect and re-assurance for the dog is the only way it works out well.

EDIT [ response to 2 new posts as i wrote ]: Heather H is right though - firm rules are necessary. the rules must be firm, clear, consistent, and fair. it is the administration of those rules where dominance/punishment vs reassurance/guidance/reward/removal of rewards/practice comes into play.
you must be the leader a la Heather's comments; success or failure hinges on the details of exercising that role for positive gain in the face of a dog of great intelligence and sensitivity.

[Mobil]

Real quick, because I only have a minute, no, we are not using the same trainer. As I said in the OP, we are working with a veterinary behaviorist at MSU, which has an excellent program for dogs with fear and anxiety issues.

I spoke with the behaviorist today and for right now we are going to start the medication and wait a few days, no contact with the little one and no behavior modification methods. We will re group in a few days with a new plan.

[Raven]

And here's a sign just for you: