Looking for some guidance

[shayter]

Hi there,
I'm a SAR handler in BC, Canada...I'm looking for a new candidate and I'm exploring Dutchies as an option.
I recently met a rockstar Dutchie at the British Colombia Search Dog Association annual training meet and inquired about his background...he came from CherCarKennels in Michigan. I have started talking to Cheryl and she sounds very informed as to our needs and a solid and reputable breeder as well as a very nice person...however, from asking around I have had a number of people well informed in the DS world tell me that their dogs are too soft for work...a number of people have actually insisted this. This conflicts with what I saw with my own eyes last week...I should mention that the dog I saw from CherCar actually won the "Top Dog" title at the conference out of a field of over 30 dogs, including some very experienced, well-respected, validated teams. I'd love to hear if anyone has some feedback about CherCar; their product; and the perception that seems to exist out there that their dogs are not fit for work, despite what I've witnessed.
Many thanks in advance,
S

[Mobil]

These well informed people in the DS world, are they owners of dogs from cher car who proved to be too soft for search and rescue work, or are they repeating things they've heard?

Because I personally form opinions from what my own eyes tell me before I put stock into unsubstantiated rumor.

[johninny]

my Tracer is a bit nervous if other dogs get too close and in his face, but he is anything but a soft dog. when it comes to training, he is all business and is not bothered by any amount of correction [ tho he might get tired/bored of correction were it not for him loving praise or treats ]. i would not call him hard in that he is not super arrogant and stubborn, but he would hardly blink at the most inappropriate corrections; instead, he just stares at you at attention and has this look like ''let me know when you are done.'' he likes learning and he likes rules.

i think i have stated here that his calling would seem to be tracking. he loves tracking scents and seems very precise about it. of the 3 i currently have, he is the expert and enthusiastic tracker.

physically, he is incredibly agile and capable and, most of all, precise in his movement of body, mouth, teeth, etc. but is less interested in using those abilities in fetch, especially when the household competition is overwhelming. he will use his faculties to outsmart and out-maneuver his other DS companions and seems to revel in that. he will also play with something for hours like a cat - very good at entertaining himself with mental puzzles of his own making. and a great sense of humor.

i think [ know ] he is atypical for a chercar dog as i was looking for something very specific, but i think the typical would suit you much more and do not believe that the discouragement you have received has any real basis.

the most current photos of him on here are in photos section, a thread titled ''solve'' like this month's contest; a couple below so you know which one he is.

edit: Tracer is from the may 4, 2013, Chercar litter.

[LyonsFamily]

Dusty has it exactly right. Everyone loves repeating what they hear as stating it as fact. A lot of the people dissing Cher Car dogs simply do it because they have conformation titles. A conformation title in and of itself (especially a UKC one at that) does not mean the dog was from show lines or was in any way bred just for the show ring. For many people (myself included), conformation is a sport and just something fun to do with the dogs. Breeding for looks is not the goal, but if you can get a pretty dog that meets the breed standard while also producing exceptional working dogs, all the better. You have a lot of people in the working world see what happened to the GSD in the AKC show ring and automatically assume anyone interested in conformation with a DS must be watering down dogs and breeding for extreme looks.

I've met Cher Car dogs. I like them. While I don't have any experience with SAR, I do have tracking and scent work experience and think that the dogs I have met would excel at it.

I would personally ask Cheryl if she has any buyers with dogs currently certified for SAR work that are out working that you can contact, then give them all a call and ask their opinions.

[Mobil]

I would personally ask Cheryl if she has any buyers with dogs currently certified for SAR work that are out working that you can contact, then give them all a call and ask their opinions.

This is excellent advice.

[HeatherH]

There's no way I would call these dogs soft. Not in training not handling or weather conditions. My dog maybe my family dog but I take him in all kinds of times of days and weather conditions we are literally out with him 365 days a year. I've even strapped him to me while climbing just to see how he would handle it. He's not dumb he doesn't go head first while hiking in cliffy areas. He doesn't come running at you when recalling in these areas either. Water doesn’t slow him either I've seen him dive into the creek and lake in January. He didn't bat an eye. He also takes to sniffing and remembering pretty well (games we play I've learned from where I kennel him). I've walked him through the conservation at night he's very calm and methodical. It's all the handling and constant training.
There's a lady in my area that has taught her DS to sniff out bedbugs. I see her once in a while on my way home.

[Raven]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong....My understanding of a hard dog is one who is resilient to/unaffected by hard corrections.

[Stacy_R]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong....My understanding of a hard dog is one who is resilient to/unaffected by hard corrections.

that is my understanding. a "hard dog" doesn't mind the occasional aversive, will take it in stride, and actually sees it as information rather than a punishment or act of intimidation. a "hard dog" will see it for what it is: an acceptable form of communication, information in the form of correction.

a "soft dog" cannot discern all of this and will take things personally. they are sensitive to correction.

[johninny]

that is originally how i took the question: insensitive/impervious to correction/criticism. and i started out with my response that way, but then wandered and got expansive as i wondered about the true intent of the question.

someone here - as that potentially ''hard'' Mal puppy was waiting to join Riddick as a roommate - wrote a great description of a truly hard dog. til then, i had always been frightened of the idea of a hard dog, but reading that [ it seemed and sounded correct to me -- ?? ] i realized TraceDog had been as hard a dog as they come. i both loved him for that and tore my hair out over it - so arrogant and stubborn in the extreme! [ is Thor the same? ]

with that in mind, Tracer is TOTALLY INSENSITIVE to correction. but i said he is not truly hard because he is NOT arrogant. he is willing to accept my point of view, whereas a hard dog will often take the position that the handler is simply wrong [ which may be right ] and not yield. it is not an indication of willingness to learn and be extremely and precisely obedient, but the hard dog will consider each command and say ''no thank you'' or ''NO !!!!'' to some of them. a hard dog is a total disaster for someone who does not know - AND UNDERSTAND - him well. a ''substitute'' will probably not have a chance at controlling such a dog when those differences of opinion come up; the stand-in handler will probably lose the argument as there is nothing on earth more stubborn and capable of enforcing his point of view than a really hard DS [ other than maybe an elephant or rhino - LOL ].

since my first post, i have come to think that the question was of the nature that other answers have addressed - more hardy and tough - physically and mentally - than ''hard''. and in that way, we all know DS are as tough as dogs come and Chercar dogs are no exception. in fact, given what i perceive to be their consistently excellent bodies, they are probably more physically hardy than DS are on average given the fragility and physical maladies of some DS. in this sense, Tracer would be a very ''hard'' [ tough ] dog!

[johninny]

one more clarification:
i made a generalization about Chercar dogs as being physically hardy [ as i think would be the case from any of the good breeders we know ]; now turning to use ''hard'' in the proper, mental character sense, i think Tracer's degree of hardness - hard enough to work with/not intimated by very strong correction - while not being truly hard [ very arrogant and very stubborn ] is also very typical of Chercar dogs from what i understand. i think that is something Cheryl strives for.

edit and afterthought: aside from TraceDog who mentally was as hard as a diamond, Tracer, along with my foster Cain, is the hardest dog i have ever had.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

I would say depends on the dogs you are going to get a puppy from more than anything. H taught himself to track to a fairly accurate degree - and has used it to get me unlost - so the question of having a "nose" is a non-problem in these guys. From what I understand of my limited interactions in SAR, you're not just looking for a nose, you're looking for specific drives.

I know there are now, I believe, 3 kennels in the US breeding the same exact lines as they all have either a sister or mother of a certain dog... Is this a bad thing? Not at all! But I would be more interested, after choosing a reputable breeder of course, in the dogs and their backgrounds and what kind of pups they throw versus a "Insert Kennel Name Here Dog" ideal because of this. But I'm speaking from someone who when I was looking got the hype about how each kennel bred different, unique lines that were unique to that kennel and no one used the same lines. Maybe they stopped using this tactic.

I think maybe Cher Car for a bit focused more on breeding pretty dogs with not necessarily the needed gusto for "hard police type work" a few years ago. Not so much anymore. So you aren't going to find a "soft" dog from them if that's not what you want. I would focus more on the assets you ABSOLUTELY NEED in a partner to work SAR. Then ask Cher Car. If they can't provide it, go to Christie, ask, and so on and so on.

As an aside, would the fact that a DS would emotionally bond to you be a problem in working SAR? If you get stressed out the dog will feel it more than another dog maybe would have. I'm asking for my own curiosity as I've seen 1 DS in training for SAR and I've always wondered with how intuitive these guys can be to us handlers how the dynamic of searching for someone may influence that.

[Dutchringgirl]

It seems that " Hard dog" could be a subjective statement. These dogs are very smart, and if a dog will be your team mate and listen and learn, thats great, if not, and some are hard heads, then that is not going to work, or the handler has a lot to learn. I would never listen to an opinion unless that person had a dog from Cher Car, and I would also listen to how they stated that opinion. If they are bashing them and have never had their dogs, then I would either take it with a grain of salt or disregard and find someone who has, and that is what you are doing by coming here.

My Mal was a toughie in the ring but so lovable and sweet at home. Thalie would also let me know how she wanted to be corrected, she listened but she came up the lead on me a few times to say HEY!! But again, she is a super sweet lovable dog.

Talk to the breeder and find people who have her dogs, get your info from the source, not people who want to disrespect her.