Demon, mirrors, dog boarding

[cordeliandemon]

I've been in contact with a trainer (legit one this time) who trains dutch shepherds for personal protection, the military and just plain old obedience. They have a huge facility and offered to take demon for a whole week for some basic obedience, 200 euro to cover training and boarding. Do you think this sounds good? I've never sent a dog away for training before and hopefully it will be the first of many sessions (once I get the money together... Seems some of my late grannies jewlery will have to go for demons sake)

On another note, I don't mean to spam my pup all over the place but I was playing with demon in a spare room earlier and when I called him he got all confused and looked at my reflection in the big mirror behind me instead. Just thought his little tail wag then 'wait something's not right' face was adorable http://youtu.be/7bdFw19b6LY

Stop growinggggg!

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

If you haven't already, I would see if you could talk to any past customers of their's, reviews online, go see them work a few dogs, and anything else. In general I'm weary of sending a dog away for board and train for two reasons: training is about training the handler as much as the dog, so while the dog learns what it needs to do you haven't learned how to reinforce/correct/get the same results as they are, and they may use aversive measures that you aren't aware of. I think in certain cases they are beneficial, but special care must be taken in choosing one and knowing exactly what you want out of the program. There are very few board and train programs I would consider actually worth while and good, and if a program has a "pay this amount for 2 weeks then get free/reduced price 'refresher/update' sessions/courses" I'm more likely to consider it a scam to get constant money. There's a well known place here in the states that trains "protection dogs" and it's the biggest scam ever - they ruin more dogs than they actually train. But if you feel like it's worth it and it would work for Demon, go for it.

And it's hard to spam us when Demon is so cute! Spam away.

[Raven]

I'm not a believer in dog camps. First reason, I think owner and dog needs to be together for training, for reasons almost too lengthy to list. Second reason, I don't like the idea of my animals being handled by others. Third, I have no control over what is being done. Fourth, I've heard one too many before-and-after tales.


Tee-hee on the mirror. Too cute.

[cordeliandemon]

thank you both for your advice! ive had the same concerns and will be probing for more details soon (aka after kodas spay... and she may be showing signs of polyneuropathy- having had a weird gate for a few years and only this week shes fallen hard 4 times, more than a little worried)

ive been looking online and have only been able to find one negative review (which was promptly followed by multiple positive ones questioning the authenticity of the first) but i wont start counting all my eggs before they hatch. their site and facebook page both look very positive with their own selection of testimonies on display, many videos and services they provide. ill definitely be gathering more information and scoping them out before sending "deemyweemy" anywhere.
they were very polite in returning my email in any case, a contrast to my first trainer experience of "WHO TOLD YOU TO PUT DOG IN A HARNESS?? NO! NO! HARNESS ARE FOR POLICE DOG WHO TOLD YOU!"

heres the facebook and site incase anyone whould like to take a peak

https://www.facebook.com/pages/K9-Secur ... 5315243507

http://www.k9securityireland.com/

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

My best advice is to use your gut on matters like these. Any business will strive to show themselves in the best light, and try to sell customers. Feel free to ask us about anything you feel unsure about. I've heard thousands of pitches and talk of how training should go and I can honestly say that is something sounds overly complicated, or doesn't make sense, it probably isn't the best place to go to. Dog training, for most purposes, is fairly logical, taking into consideration the animal's attitude and behavior.

[Dutchringgirl]

I am also against sending the dogs away for anything, except regular boarding. I dont trust anyone. I know my dogs and I know how to handle them. I have worked with protection trainers and i know what goes into training and have seen what goes on behind the scenes. Take them yourself, everyday if you must and train them yourself and a trainer. You and your dog should always train together, this way your a team and not someone, I dont care how good they are, some one else trains your dog and does who knows what to them.

[cordeliandemon]

the only thing is how i am (in terms of ptsd, agoraphobia ect) and i just worry how ill affect demon with a new trainer present. from my experiences taking him to new places and interacting with people demon dosnt know yet, he knows im not myself and it changes his behaviour for the negative. maybe theres a slight chance if i 100% make sure this place is legitimate, then send demon for a few days or the week maybe he'll be calmer knowing the run of things, and that will make me calmer too? and from there we could just desensitise eachother to it....

i really do want to do it myself but i know im the problem, not the dog. its like a big puzzle in my head how can i help demon and by extension help myself (once he has obedience ill be able to take him with me wherever i go, maybe even go from there and try get him trained to be a real service dog)
it just seems like we need a helping hand in this, a boost in the beginning and then keep going on our own momentum. we have a really good bond going at the moment, the whole situation is a head wrecker. its like all i want to do in the world is get to the top of a mountain with this dog so we can go sledding on the other side, but i have broken legs.

[Raven]

Interesting catch-22 you have. You wanted a dog for protection b/c of the person who caused you to have PTSD, but getting a pup (instead of a trained adult) is hindering you both from "advancing" to serve the immediate purpose.

If it were me (and I'm glad it's not, though I feel badly for you), I'd simply have to look at it as I was meant to deal with this, and from doing so, my dog and I will move forward in spectacular ways that we otherwise would not have--not without each other. Yet one of the reasons I'm glad I'm not in your shoes is that you need to be there for your dog--especially a pup--and with what you have going on...whew.

I'm glad you enjoy him. It's unrealistic to think that he's helped in any measurable or noticeable way thus far, just from having him and working with him, but, you know, strange things are known to happen.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Hmmm... That may tip him off even more as to why you're feeling anxious/nervous. He'll know what's supposed to happen (with a handler sans anxiety/nervousness) and then when you handle him, he may think it's even more of a reason to be protective. Just a thought. I would suggest a trainer that you trust to help you and Demon through this before sending him off for training. It takes a lot of work, not gonna lie, but it is possible. It may also take some maturity on Demon's part too. I've been told a lot of what a service dog learns can't be completely taught by a trainer in most cases - more they learn specifics because you teach them what you need. So perhaps this is a chance to teach demon some things to help you out in public, so when you leave the house he'd be "working" so his focus would be on you?

How's his obedience now?

[Travis]

I'm not a believer in dog camps. First reason, I think owner and dog needs to be together for training, for reasons almost too lengthy to list. Second reason, I don't like the idea of my animals being handled by others. Third, I have no control over what is being done. Fourth, I've heard one too many before-and-after tales.

The above sums it above pretty well IMO.

One other thought, what happens when your protection and bite trained dog looks to you for cues in new situations and your PTSD and anxiety issues kick in? Are you sure this is such a good idea?

[LyonsFamily]

Well the puppy pics on that site are stolen from http://www.alldogstrain.com/trainedpups.html I'm not sure if that makes a big difference in your selection of a trainer.

[cordeliandemon]

I thought his obedience was going along well but we had a bit of an incident when I took him for a longer than usual walk almost a week ago (was supposed to be 40mins, he turned it into 90) we went out before sunrise to work on not picking things up off the street and staying within the boundaries of the path. Started off great and ended up accidentally teaching him "hike" (speed up/run) like I did with koda for sledding (wanted him to cross the road and get to the other side a bit faster while saying hike and he quickly picked it up)
All was going well until I showed him the beach for the first time, he tasted salt water and lost it wanting to get home. Then the whole "attacking his lead" thing resurfaced out of nowhere (I thought he'd gotten over that). As we left the beach morning traffic was starting to slowly appear and another old friend showed itself "lunging at cars" -_- .
We were making it about 10 feet every 3 minutes and it just wasn't working so I waited for a gap in the traffic (the way the traffic lights down the road work they happen now and then) and started saying "hike hike hike!". He was off like a train and dragged me at a sprint all the way home before seeing a single other car. It's made me reevaluate the situation.

Travis I'm only looking for obedience right now, protection is off the agenda and I'd be content with just being able to rely on him not freaking out when were out. I made no mention of bite training.

Thank you for the observation about the photo, not really an uncommon thing in Ireland for someone to nab a few pictures to make their website design more eye catching. As I've said though I'm not concrete on this trainer or counting my eggs before they hatch (only one email exchange has been made so far and I'll be asking for more info soon, still open to finding a better one) but I appreciate your help and concern

[DanLu5]

Try not to be discouraged about the regression during your extra long walk - Demon is still pretty young right? They often can only learn to a point and once they're tired out they start to act out and not listen. I'm guessing Demon just reached the point of mental exhaustion and started to misbehave.

I agree with what many others have said - I only trust my dog with me and try to only board him because I'm travelling. The one exception that I might make is if I wanted to have Logan titled at some point. Then I might consider going the board and train route but it would have to be at a place I've researched and really trust.

One suggestion I have is why not try contacting some trainers and explaining a bit about your situation? Maybe one will have a good idea about how to take that into account when planning lessons for you and Demon?

[Travis]

Travis I'm only looking for obedience right now, protection is off the agenda and I'd be content with just being able to rely on him not freaking out when were out. I made no mention of bite training.

Sorry about that. I followed the posted links to their site and saw lots of stuff about training the "executive and personal protection dog" and puppy bite training and made some (apparently incorrect) assumptions.

[NWDS]

Enzo was sent to a board and train in Atlanta by his previous. When I got him, I reviewed his vet records and they indicated that he had burns/open sores from excessive e collar usage. He was very shakey on platz and would go very submissive at any NO.

He's becoming happier but it's scary to not know what goes on out of your sight.

[Mobil]

I'm just gonna start answering all the posts with "What Kira said." LOL

[Raven]

He'll know what's supposed to happen (with a handler sans anxiety/nervousness) and then when you handle him, he may think it's even more of a reason to be protective. Just a thought.

I think we talked about this in a different post...one right after Cordelia joined us. Regardless, good point.

[Stacy_R]

I am not anti board and trains as long as you:
1. are knowledgeable about your dog and your dog's needs,
2. are knowledgeable about the trainers, their facilities, and their methods (meaning any and all methods used),
3. are able to communicate with them clearly and they fully understand what *your* needs are (as opposed to them just doing what they want to do).

I use a trainer here in North Carolina who does board and trains (I also won't send my dogs to any other boarding facility or trainers...period. Ever.). They are very up front about their methods and schedule times during the board and trains for the owners to see progress and participate. They also schedule a training session for the owner at pick-up so that everyone is all on the same page. They train everything from service dogs to goose-control dogs and everything in-between (i've seen them do AMAZING things with highly aggressive dogs). There is another trainer in my area who people love...I took Tyson to see her for a basic consult and new immediately that she was not for us. I'm not saying she is a "bad" trainer, per se, but the way she trains is not for me.

I guess my point is this: interview ANY trainer you use and research them extensively, whether it be for board and train, classes, or one-on-one. Don't let them pressure you and listen to your gut.

[cordeliandemon]

thank you all for the helpful responses, still not sure about who to find to help with demon, still going to have to meditate on it.
as far as dutch shepherds and working dogs go on the island we're not spoilt for choice when it comes to obedience training. so far ive found and investigated two that definitely have experience with DS.

one is the boarding kennel, they do boarding because theyre based in Tipperary and thats like a 4-5 hour drive from me so boarding is the only real way that would work if we went that route

the other is the man who imported both demons parents (hes not the breeder i got demon from to be clear, the breeder is an extremely friendly and helpful man and took the time to show me every single malinois and dutch in his kennels, going through their personalities, who is who's descendant and what theyre trained for)
having looked at his site (k9ireland.com) i really dont want to go there. the whole vibe is negative and intimidating and i dont see them having the patience to help the unique situation at hand.
eg

"
You must have a dog suitable for knpv and from working lines (Preferable our dogs ) you will have to pay club fees in advance . You must be able to handle a dog to train . You must be willing to listen . You must turn off your mobile phone when training .
As for the rules they are simple you do what i say or leave . No trying to tell me how you think it should be done . You will have to sign our policy. To become a member you must contact me through this website with a contact number ."

ill just have to continue with my search for the right man/woman for the job at hand, this is definitely something im not going to rush into.
for now i went out today and bought a crapload of hotdogs and cut them into little bite sized pieces to use with demon, theres no way he'll be able to resist those when we're training

[Raven]

Sorry if you've stated this here or in another thread, but where is Demon with focus? Is he focusing on the treat or on you?