Hello from Illinois

[Jimyfirm]

Hello everyone, I've been reading this forum for about a month now. 6 months ago I decided I wanted to get into personal protection and obedience. Have had many dogs over the years and very comfortable with obedience, new to protection.

When I first started down this path, I thought I wanted a German Shepherd. After looking into a few clubs and seeing the dogs first hand, I kept looking at the Malinois. Made up my mind on the Malinois. As I was looking into breeders and whatnot, I discovered the Dutch Shepherd. Couple of hours with the trainer and several phone conversations with different breeders. Not to mention the countless hours on the Internet. I feel this is the right dog for the job and me.

I have found a breeder that will have some pups later this year, I'll be getting a female. In the meantime I'll be spending my Wednesday evenings hanging around the trainers facilities. Getting familiar with the people and trainer, just trying to get a little comfortable and settled in before the pup arrives

[Raven]

Welcome. Glad to hear you're investing your time to research and learn before diving into the dark side. Whatever you learn till you acquire a DS, reality will be a gazillion times different.

You want a dog for personal protection or protection sport?

[Jimyfirm]

Personal protection, I'm very competitive and I keep thinking I'd like to get involved in PSA. I just don't know, being a new handler, not sure if I feel I'm on that level

[Raven]

Personal protection, I'm very competitive and I keep thinking I'd like to get involved in PSA. I just don't know, being a new handler, not sure if I feel I'm on that level

Personal protection dogs are trained differently than dogs in protection sport. So...you're not interested in getting a dog FOR your personal protection, but rather to compete in sport, yes?

Not all dogs should compete (or be trained in PP). A reputable trainer will know if the dog you acquire is suitable for either.

Are there good clubs in your area where you can spend time before you get a pup? A few folks on this forum know the caliber of different clubs and some of the trainers--where are you located?

[Jimyfirm]

No, personal protection. I'm in Rockford Illinois

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Welcome to the forum!

I'll second that if you want a PPD, stick to PPD only. I've been down the road of PPD/sport and can tell you they are VERY different, even in PSA, which I started in. Nothing wrong with doing it later, but I wouldn't cross train it at the same time, as after bite development the scenarios are very different from each other. Personally, I'd either have a dog for each, PPD and a sport dog, or if the dog was capable I would do sport later in life, after the PPD foundation and training are way rock solid and in tact (and used, so year/s later). Some say a sport dog acts just like a PPD, and fundamentally on the surface it's true, and there are dogs that are great PPD dogs that have never been formally trained and only done sport, however, those are few and the aspect and goal of the dog and training of each are very different, especially when you get into the wide variety of training techniques each club uses. Each sport has its pros and cons, and I know a few on here have trained in several different ones, so feel free to ask any Qs. Each sport has it's own goal and some conflict with what a PPD should do. Who's the trainer you'll be working with? What is the dam and sire of your pup? Can't wait to see the puppy pics - we adore them. Get ready for your brindle tornado!!!!

[Jimyfirm]

If there are enough females I'll be getting one out of Rival and Kym from Battle Ridge Kennels

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

You're gonna have a blast with that bloodline. I have pup from a Tommy grandson and Wibo granddaughter on the dam's side. Similar bloodlines to your's. He's a forward fighter and definitely a handful - willing to take anyone down. The Django blood should make for a very spitfire pup and wicked smart too. Is this a repeat breeding? I love learning about the litters and the dams/sires.

[Jimyfirm]

I have have a concern, I'm looking for a fast as lighting agile dog. I think these dutchies are on the big side. What do you think about the speed and agility? There will be another breeding, beginning of the year with Condor and Jami. Those should be a bit smaller. Not a repeat this will be Kym's first litter

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Hard to say if it's a first time breeding. I'm not sure if Rival has been bred or not. I can say my guy at 65 lbs is fast and loves to jump and leap and is very agile. He's nailed a few people for being fast and it's certainly a challenge in handling a fast and agile dog. He's not as heavy as a Bor son/daughter but certainly carries his muscles well. Django blood should help with agility, but genetics can be fickle, hence why I'm a bit hesitant to say flat out yes that this breeding would produce fast and agile dogs. As a whole, I'd say DS and certainly a DSx like this litter would be overall as a breed more agile and fast than a GSD, the exact amount of which would be up to the genetic gods and the pup.

It also depends on why you want a fast and agile dog - for agility? For bite preference? For certain type of work? I've seen 50 lbs dogs that are slow but once you're hit you're down for a while as they're so powerful, and I've seen 95 lbs dogs hit in a second but fly off the bite with their momentum.

[Jimyfirm]

Fast and agile, I'm thinking of possible situations. Sometimes seconds mean life or death, the dog might need out the truck in an instant. I mean I can think of a hundred reasons why I'd rather have a fast agile dog over say, a rottweiler. Sure tons of stopping power and yet I've seen a rot move in high speed. Not the way I've seen Malinois come out of a car and over a fence.

I know I'm talking on the extreme side of a bad situation. But sometimes life needs extreme. Plus I live in the middle of a big patch off woods. I think a DS can navigate the terrain better

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

I hear ya. What are they predicting as far as weight wise for the pups expected adult weight? I get a tad bit hesitant over 70 lbs, unless it's a dog like Big Roy, but I also don't want a 45 lbs lightweight that doesn't pack a punch. Nothing against the smaller pups - I love them to death - but there's a line I want to tread on for PPD. Something that has enough of a bad ass look/weight to deter most, can back up its threat if someone tries to test it, but also isn't so insanely strong it'll yank me over or be slow. And you'd be surprised at how strong some of the lighter DS are too. That being said, you can train for a hard impact, build drive for the bite (read speed of deployment), condition for speed and endurance and agility, but as far as natural ability that's again a genetic factor you can't quite predict. From what little I've seen of Rival he's on the lower side of fast and I haven't looked much into Kym besides pedigree and what I've been told in general gab sessions with people. With a first litter and unproven producers, if I inferred right that neither have been bred before, there's always a bit of "guessing" factor, and raising the pup adds a whole other "guess" factor to the equation. Overall I would say that yes there would be fast and agile dogs you could create via training from that litter, but as far as natural talent and extreme speed or any other "it" factor, I can only offer educated guesses.

If you don't mind me asking, and feel free to PM me if you don't want to share publically, why go for a pup and train from the ground up and not a green dog or even a fully trained PPD dog? Just curious.

[Raven]

Most folks don't need a personal protection dog. If a dog makes them feel more secure, or if they want the sight of a dog to keep others at-bay, simply having a dog is often deterrent enough. Anyone who truly needs a dog for PP needs to be hyper-vigilant when scoping out trainers; things can go wrong quickly. (As they also can with protection sport training.) And there's increased liability issues.

I'm still not clear on your purpose, though. You replied your need/desire was for PP, but you keep mentioning protection sport. Not being a jerk--I'm just not clear on it.

[Jimyfirm]

Again, personal protection. I have dogs, acreage and a lot of free time. Also I live in one of the more violent areas in the country. With home invitations happening multiple times a week, an more murders in 2015 than a town of 152000 should have in a decade. Thanks for your opinion of what most folks need. Most folks probably don't need a gun, I sleep good with mine tho. I live in the country but not that far in the country. At the rate of escalating violence, robberys and murders. I find some comfort in planning for a victory if a bad guy or two wonder in to my patch of woods with ill intention. No one can predict when something horrible us going to happen. If it's going to happen to me or not, is a question I don't have the answer to.

I've been in MMA for 10 year's, have I been mugged? No, that doesn't stop me from going to the gym anymore. I've never had to shoot anyone that broke into my house while I was watching TV. I still shoot, clean and oil my guns every month. Like I said, I appreciate your opinion of what I need in my life. I like as many tools to my advantage IF I'm involved in a life or death situation.

[Raven]

From the sounds of it, a dog doesn't stand a chance against the type of evil you describe.