7-mo DS is, currently, a great big jerk

[spicymeatball]

I'm not sure if this should go here or under the AlphaK9Kennels thread I found.

A few days ago, I wrote an email to a dutch shepherd rescue in PA to get some advice. I live in Michigan. My husband and I bought a DS from AlphaK9Kennels in Greenville, SC in January. We received our puppy in March. I am so glad I found this forum because I was starting to feel incredibly lonely and confused.

Why did we get a DS? We wanted a family dog that would also protect our home. We live in a shitty area. We were told by the breeder that DS were less needy than a Belgian and smaller with less health problems than a GS.

We did not understand the DS when we put that deposit on Thor, despite a lot of online research. Our biggest mistake was conducting most of that research with breeders vs vets, trainers, etc. We were naive and ... well, just stupid. My husband wanted a dog for home protection but also a family dog who would be his best friend. We were told by the breeder that Thor could be that dog. Four months and a lot of tears later, I think I understand what kind of dog I have and how those two things aren't necessarily going to occur simultaneously in a lot of dogs.

Thor's sire was a dog named Alpha's Mighty Thor, whose sire is Carlos. I cannot remember the dam's name, though, I'll have to dig his ppwk out. I don't know what that means, specifically, or what Thor's whole family tree looks like, but this dog is much more than we expected and our trainers tell us that he is more reactive than the average DS.

He is very closely bonded to my husband, despite my husband being more hands off. I introduced all of the new scary stuff: first walk, first car ride, first bath, vet visits, etc. I walk him the most and play with him the most. I taught him 90% of the tricks/commands he knows. He is never aggressive with my husband, in fact, he's scared of my husband, and is nearly perfectly obedient with him. Also, when they are alone together, Thor is all cuddles ... calm, never gets into anything, just tries to get my husband to pet him. When I come home, he's into EVERYTHING, stealing things, and chasing me around with whatever toy he has in a pushy attempt to get me to play with him. He is sassy and oftentimes rude (super mouthy, growly, sometimes barks at me, jumps on me, etc.) Thor lacks respect for me despite my giving him consistent, strong corrections when necessary. I'm not giving him sissy corrections -- I'm past that phase of being butthurt when he yelps. Now, if he's acting up and I correct him and he yipes a bit, I consider it a good one. Anything less and Thor, basically, gives me the finger and snickers.

Thor mouths the both of us, equally, although I'm the only one who corrects him for it. In fact, while I enforce more rules and control over Thor (get off the bed/couch, wait to come out side until I tell you, wait to eat until I tell you, sit/stay basically everywhere), he listens better to my husband. Thor is increasingly aggressive with me. He's bitten me twice over something he's stolen and there have been countless "near misses". When I correct him for not dropping something (he wears a prong all the time), he'll come up the leash at me and that's how I've been bitten twice now. He's also killed two of my cats, which, I understand, is a totally different thing, not aggression. But, I will say -- he doesn't kill them because he's playing with them. He goes directly for the belly and dispatches them immediately. His aim is to kill it, not play with it.

Thor's fear aggression started at 9 weeks toward people. We were inadvertently encouraging it vs correcting it up until 12 weeks when we started a puppy class. We go to a training facility that trains both civilians and police teams and have found an invaluable resource in the lead trainer there.

Thor is an underconfident dog, so we enrolled him in a tricks class, which seemed to help. He does spectacularly in obedience training and is about to graduate to Intermediate class. As long as my husband is handling him, he's relatively tolerant of other dogs and does well. He's not thrilled to be with other dogs, and we deal with other dog owners who have happy dogs not being particularly vigilant, but Thor does ok. Despite that, all of the trainers there have told me, "no one would fault you for rehoming Thor," due to his personality.

Another worthy mention is that he is much different when we're not present -- like at the vet. I ask the vet tech to take him to the back without us to do the exam. He's not excited to be there, but he stops barking and growling once he's away from us.

Thor is reactive to both dogs and people. We've been giving him strong corrections when he lunges and growls at people and that's worked up until recently. Thor's aggression towards people is still mostly fear-based but now (as of last week), he's started coming up the leash at me when I correct him for lighting up. My husband thinks he just needs to be neutered. I think it's a combination of that and being understimulated. Perhaps we are both wrong -- maybe it's more.

We're at a crossroads with Thor. I don't want to rehome him; we love him. But we do want to do what's best for him and for our family. I asking how much of this is normal DS behavior, is he genetically a little off like our trainers have suggested, or is this the product of coming from a hard line?

[Babydog123]

You have to keep in mind he's still a teenager!he's gonna sass. And with the possession issue, I would just not let him have toys while he's out. Keep him on a leash or shock collar so you can stay in control. But also you need to he fair!!!!!! Grabbing a sock and biting you should not have the same punishment.

[spicymeatball]

Oh, Thor is actually leashed the entire time my husband isn't home. He actually is much more obedient with me when he's on lead. Also, if I need to cook or something, it's easier to just stand on it so he can't wander off.

Our corrections are definitely metered based on the offense. Breaking a stay vs growling and barking at an old lady sitting on her porch are two very different corrections. But, to be honest, when he's bitten me, I just said (and it sounded so incredibly flaccid and stupid at the time), "no bite," and put him in his crate to get some distance between us. In my heart -- to my core -- I knew, both times, that if I corrected him again he'd bite me again, but worse.

[cordeliandemon]

it does seem like normal dutch shepherd puppy behavior, theyre satan in a fluffy package and i was at my wits end with demon too until he turned a year old.
im concerned with this
"Thor lacks respect for me despite my giving him consistent, strong corrections when necessary. I'm not giving him sissy corrections -- I'm past that phase of being butthurt when he yelps. Now, if he's acting up and I correct him and he yipes a bit, I consider it a good one. Anything less and Thor, basically, gives me the finger and snickers. "
how do you correct him, do you hit him? if so that would be why he doesnt respect you at all, and that could be very dangerous for you. DS will treat you the way you treat them. its very very important to build a mutual respect and a strong, trusting relationship between you and the dog where you both listen to eachothers needs or youll go nowhere, maybe even backwards in terms of progress.

im sure some others on the forum will have some valuable advice for you too

[Dutchringgirl]

He has killed two of your cats?? This is not just teenage stuff or sassy crap. This is plain wrong and only going to get worse. he has bitten you already. He is above your pay scale sorry to say. This breed is not a pet, nor just a dog to be with the family one minute and guarding the door the next. I am glad you came here but I do wish you found us before you got him.

I respectfully disagree that you should put a shock collar on him. You can do way more damage than good. You both need to be trained on how to use one. It is not just some added correction. It is a training tool that is not to be taken lightly.

he is also more than just a jerk, he bit and killed, that is not a jerk, you have a serious issue here.

[Dutchringgirl]

it does seem like normal dutch shepherd puppy behavior, theyre satan in a fluffy package and i was at my wits end with demon too until he turned a year old.
o

Sorry to disagree but this is NOT normal, this is behavior from a poor fitted dog to home.

I am sorry for being blunt but I take my DS's very seriously as they are serious dogs. They are meant for police or military work. Not for "family pets"

[Dutchringgirl]

My opinion would be to re home him to someone who knows this breed. This is not a good situation for either of you.

[cordeliandemon]

im saying this is normal for the dog in its situation, i didnt say anything about this being a good fit for person or dog, or even that theyre good pets which im well aware of and usually warning people on here not to get one. dutch shepherd are monsters, this dutch shepherd is being a monster, no?

[MultiPurposeK9]

First, anyone referring to a remote collar or E-collar as a shock collar has no credibility. Anyone giving you advise over the internet or opinion who has not evaluated your dog and your handling skills in person are doing you no favors. People who have done an eval and know the dog have given you their opinion. Many people get dogs and find themselves in way over their heads no matter what the breed. Consistency + Repetition = Predictability can be vary rewarding on the good side, the same when things aren't going well can be a very bad look.

[Dutchringgirl]

it does seem like normal dutch shepherd puppy behavior,

here is your quote, this is NOT normal.

[spicymeatball]

Thank you all for your honest and educated opinions. To address a couple things:

- I have never hit Thor. Corrections are leash pops of varying intensities. Small pops for not heeling or breaking a stay. Big pops where I come in to get slack and then pull back for lunging at someone or other aggression. When we took him to the vet to discuss neutering, he lunged at the vet and I took him off of his feet, after which he calmed down.

- I've asked our trainer about a shock collar and she seemed to think he would most likely redirect that aggression toward me. I am aware that they require training and was concerned about any damage they may cause to him physically or to our already strained relationship.

- We are aware (well, I am aware) that Thor was not properly placed with us. I guess the question now is will things change with more structure, neutering, consistent training, more outlets for his energy, and maturity? I don't want to give up on him if there are things we can do to make this work.

I don't ever want to make an excuse for Thor, but the cats are not 100% his fault. That dog was set up for failure. Was it a mistake to bring a dog with super high prey drive into a house with 4 cats? Yes, I didn't realize that how strong his prey drive would be and AND stupidly thought exposing him to them as a puppy might help him learn to tolerate them. My husband hates cats and he would think it was funny to encourage Thor to "get 'em". We had legit arguments about how irresponsible and immature (and disrespectful to me) this was and it's still a very tender subject in our home. Cats should have been a hard "leave it" from day one. Those two cats died due, largely, to a matter of vigilance. Thor has never attacked a cat while under my watch -- it only happened while my husband was with home alone with him and it's 100% because he gives him more freedom than he can handle. This is because, when with me, he is simply not allowed to be out of my sight and when he does encounter a cat, he's told to leave it.

Thor should respect a command when told to "leave it," but at the same time, he really was set up to fail there. We have two remaining cats that he doesn't bother. One is possibly mentally challenged. He's afraid of nothing and never runs and is pretty old and slow. The other is super fat and dominant. Neither reacts to him when he's nearby (no hissing, running, swatting). I actually wonder if Thor thinks the really fat one is an ugly small dog because he consistently tries to bring him his ball/chew toys.

[Dutchringgirl]

I have worked with aggressive dogs and a shock collar in untrained hands ( no offence ) and on an untrained dog will only make matteres worse. BELEIVE ME !! Ive been there. Your trainer is correct.

its not about giving up on him, not at all. This is already deadly situation, he took o0ut your vet and killed two cats!! I am sorry about coming on strong but I believe he needs to be re homed.

There is no reason for cats to die, even if the cats were the ones who batted him on the nose 110 times. The dog should still not have killed them, the fact that he did is a HUGE red flag.

I am not blaming you, and saying you are just irresponsible, not at all, but at this point, this is just not a good situation at all.

Yes, he very well should respect a command but the training must also be there to teach him respect. Now, not being in your house, I dont know what goes on. Maybe he is just totally dis respecting you all together. So again, this is just NOT a good situation.

[cordeliandemon]

it does seem like normal dutch shepherd puppy behavior,

here is your quote, this is NOT normal.

i understood the first time you said that, sorry, FIRST time.

[ralbucks]

Hello Owner of the 7-mo DS,

I am no expert but I do have a DS that just turned 1 yr old and have been thru some rough spots. He is a rescue and was neutered. I think neutering may help. My dog exhibited similar behavior but to a much lesser degree of what you are talking about.
Mine is irritable when he has an upset stomach, so does your dog have any medical problems?
Long walks is what calms mine down as well as an enormous amount of hugging, stroking, playing ( Lots of attention needed!). Leash corrections will get my dog to try to snap at me so they don"t work. Spray bottle is wonderful for me and he can snap at it in the air all he wants.
Does he sleep enough as he should for a puppy?
Is your dog forgiving, like if you reprimand him does he forget after a few moments and come up to you for cuddles? Someone told me that is a very important quality in a dog.
I think DS will try to get out of being obedient to you if there is another person in the house that let's them off the hook easily. So my experience is that both people in the house should have a similar attitude towards the dog, as to not give the dog opposing signals.
As for the cats, that is sad, but how did he manage to kill 2 of them? I would guess after the first kill he would have been separated from any other cat out of precaution.
I am a new owner so I'm sure more experienced people here can help you keep your dog. :DSlove: :DSangel:

[TimL_168]

I'm new to the Dutch, but I've had hard headed dogs all my life. I believe your very first step should be to get every human on the same page. Consistency. No dog will learn our manners without it.

[spicymeatball]

I wrote this yesterday afternoon before I couldn't access the site. I'll address new responses below:

***
Again, thank you for your honest opinion. No offense taken at all.

I felt like we were doing a lot to establish respect and authority with his training, but please tell me what I'm missing.

When I come home, I'll let Thor out and immediately leash him. We walk to the door to go out -- Thor heels even if I'm not holding the leash. He needs a reminder, verbally, typically, and maybe I toe the leash to remind him physically, but he heels all around the house with me -- never in front, never out of site. We get to the door and he sits/stays until I tell him to come outside. We go in, he down/stays or sit/stays while I make his food and when I put it down, he watches me until I tell him it's ok to eat. I usually do obedience training with him or tricks for the next 20 or so minutes and we do that on and off throughout the night. When it was cooler out, we'd go for a walk about 2hours after he eats. He doesn't pull on the leash -- he heels very well and pays attention to me. We sit at every corner and practice turns -- he's pretty attentive actually after the second or third one. I am hyper-vigilant about our surroundings and tell him to leave it whenever he perks up at a person/dog/squirrel/bird/blowing leaf/etc. As long as I can keep him from lighting up, he's ok. Once he reacts, it's hard to reel him in and now that he's being aggressive when I correct him, I'm nervous to walk him. Where I see his lack of respect is in how he reacts to triggers when my husband or our trainer is handling him. He, most times, doesn't even try it.

When things start to break down is when I have to do something else -- fold laundry, cook, read an email, pee, get on the phone, etc. This is when Thor gets into stuff. I don't want to crate him because he's crated most of the day, but that seems like the simplest answer to peeing without getting into a fight over toilet paper is to put him in there while I use the bathroom, cook, etc. Last week, I dropped a cloth headband and, like a ninja, he grabbed it before I could get "leave it" out of my mouth. The trainer suggested trying to trade him food for the stolen item (to take the fight out of it) and that'd been working for a minute but Thor's gotten hip to that game and just ate the pepperoni slice but didn't spit out the headband --- $82 and a gallon of dog vomit later (most of which happened post-vet visit in my lap on the way home) we got the headband up.

So I guess my question is -- how do I establish more respect, or does his dog-super-powers just sense how incredibly worn down and tired I am? This reminds me, a lot, of when I had a three-year-old child ... a lot.
***

Thor does have what we've been calling "anxious tummy." He gets diarrhea if he even looks at people food and if he gets nervous or something really scares him or stresses him out, he'll have loose stools within an hour or two. We give him a probiotic and that's helping. Thor is crated most of the day and I think he likely sleeps for the majority of that time, so it seems that he's sleeping well. I've never tried a spray bottle ... Is that meant to be a distraction vs a correction?

We do have an issue with inconsistency between my husband and I. Sometimes, he's on the same page. Most times, not. He really wants to be able to rough house with the dog, wrestle, and play tug. Thor can't do those things because it fires up his drive and then I can't manage him.

Thor is forgiving when I correct him. I try to follow up certain corrections with praise -- to build a positive experience. Like when he barks and growls at people, it's a very strong correction followed with praise once he settles and calms down. My goal is to not create a negative association with meeting people.

I did want to ask how large the average male DS gets? Thor is about 30" tall (his back is to the top of my thigh; I'm only 5'0") and currently weighs 65lbs. Does their growth plateau around 1 year or is he larger than typical?

[MultiPurposeK9]

What don't you understand? Coming to a forum looking for answers to questions and behaviors none of us have seen and evaluating your skill set is silly. In your thread you say you are working with a trainer, address the issues with him, you are paying him to help you, correct? In an earlier thread someone suggested you are in way over your pay scale, take their advice based on what you are telling us. If people who have seen the dog and your skill set are telling you to "rehome" Thor what are you waiting for? AlphaK9 did you no favors in matching up you to a dog. Why didn't you look at one of Cher Cars litters, hell they live in Michigan isn't that close to you? Oh and give pepperoni to a dog may not be such a good idea given his stomach issues you describe. I feel sorry for the dog.

[spicymeatball]

I came to this forum, primarily, to find out if my dog's behavior was atypical. That's been addressed and I'm grateful for all of the honest feedback. It's clear that our problems with Thor aren't black and white, they're a myriad of things ranging from puppy selection to disagreement amongst his handlers (my husband and I).

We've received mixed advice from the trainers. The lead trainer feels that there's hope for Thor as we come up to speed in handling him, but if we decided to rehome him, she wouldn't consider it a frivolous decision.

Cher Car's website indicated they had a two-year waiting list for puppies. I emailed requesting recommendations for reputable breeders. We received a response stating they had puppies available and when I requested more information, we never got a response.

I agree -- pepperoni, or any table food isn't a good idea at all but at the time, it was the closest thing within reach and I was trying to prevent him from swallowing what he'd stolen. Despite the failure, I was doing the best I could do at the time.

Rehoming Thor isn't an easy task. For obvious reasons, I couldn't ever just surrender him, nor would I ever do that. Finding someone to take him is a challenge due to his breed and personality and handler needs. I'm brand-spankin' new here, so I'm just starting to talk to people in the DS community. Our trainer has told us she'd ask around through some of her connections but this isn't an overnight process.

We've talked to the breeder several times over the last five months about Thor's behavior. Do you know what his consistent advice is to solve all of my problems? His consistent advice is to beat the dog into submission. Specifically, me. I, specifically, need to put a muzzle on Thor and beat him into respecting me when he refuses to obey a command or gets pushy. I'm not a lily. I'm not soft with Thor or afraid to correct him, but I am not physically or emotionally capable of doing that. I'm not judging the method, I'm just saying it's not something I can do, so, if that's really the only solution, then, clearly, Thor isn't the dog for me.

You know what ... I feel sorry for Thor, too, Roger ...

[Dutchringgirl]

again, this dog is above your pay grade. You are nervouse with him, he can read that and that makes him nervouse and more reactive. A handler must know how to handle a reactive dog BEFORE they take said dog into a situation where the dog will react.
How long is he crated? So then you cant crate him more and so you allow him to get into stuff. That is not teaching him anything. That is allowing him to continue bad behaviors.
From what I read, and with out being in your house with you and your dog, Its time to rehome him.
I will repeat, its not about giving up on a dog. This dog is not for you. It’s a bad match.
No disrespect but I don’t understand why you are having a hard time letting go of trying to work with a dog that is already to much for you.
We wont look down on you rehoming him. Keeping this dog while he already KILLED two other animals, going after your vet, eating god knows what. Its NOT for you.
REHOME HIM

[centrop67]

I think this discussion has run its course.