Puppy Behavior

[tedge007]

I recently got my first Dutch Shepherd Pup a couple weeks ago. She just turned 10 weeks old today. She is a real pistol! By far the most driven pup I have ever met. I was told by my trainer that at this age I should not be correcting her biting at all, just let her have fun and if it gets out of control to just put her away in her crate instead of correcting her. I have two children 8 and 11 they both are crazy about the pup and my 11 year old daughter is very hands on. She always helps me with feding her exercising her and cleaning up after her. My daughter so badly wants the pup to play 'nice" with her once in a while and calm down so she can hold her or just pet her, so far this is not happening. The puppy sees everyone in my family inclusing me as prey items. She is mouthy with us 99.9% of the time. Along with being extremely mouthy, She is already showing signs of Active Aggression. Whenever we go to relocate her energy or remove her mouth from our clothing or skin her drive instantly intensifies and she begins to growl and bark in a very dominant manner. These are all excellent characteristics for training later on but at the same time I got the dog to be a loyal family protector so I need her to bond with the family. I would like to get feedback from some veteran Dutch owners to see if this is normal behavior in such a young pup? Also if you think that as the Dog begins to mature and stops teething do you think she will become more approachable and affectionate/social with the family. Other then this problem she is perfect healthy puppy. I appreciate the feedback.

[Dutchringgirl]

I have the same situation with Sadie, I have a 6 and 7 Yo, she is now 7 months and the only time my kids can snuggle with her is when she is passed out. Thalie is the snuggler doggie at this point. I did correct Sadies mouthing sometimes when I got her at 4 months, I never put her up though when she was bad, I didnt want her to associate the crate with punishment. There were times Sadie would put her mouth on my arm and I would let her be, she never showed any signs of aggressive behavior though. I would give her a strong NO and a bop on the nose when she wanted to chew on me and not a toy and she would get it. Thalie would also correct Sadie alot when Sadie would chew on Thalie.

[kamil959]

My little guy is 10 weeks today and is doing the same thing. If I try and hold him for him to calm down he just gets angrier and growls at me, oh and bites the snot out of my hands and clothing. But I try not to give in and he eventually calms down. The worst is in the car, hes on a harness clipped into the seat buckle, he tries to come up to me while I'm driving so I try to correct him and put him back into his place and thats when the teeth and growling start happening. So to at least solve that problem going to buy a crate for the car. Sorry if I didnt help just wanted to say your not alone, oh boy do those little teeth hurt

[Christie M]

I'm going to be honest and say that if the dogs are acting offensively aggressive at a very young age, that really makes me nervous. That being said, having not seen the behavior I can't tell you exactly what the provocation is.

The trainer that told you to not curb biting is generalizing a whole concept. If you want your dog to bite as an adult, you likely don't want to completely squash things with strict bite inhibition. However, all of my dogs do sport and bitework but do not bite me randomly out of aggression. Biting is shaped and encouraged but only out of the appropriate drives.

Where are you located? I would recommend that both folks with sassy puppies get with a good and proven trainer now and not later.

[icvanstra]

Ditto to what Christie said!!

[leih merigian]

I absolutely agree with Christie's advice.

As far as cuddling goes, or even just calm petting, I wouldn't expect that from your puppy until she's a lot older. My puppy is 11 months old, and there are times of the day when she can relax and be on the cuddly side, and I can pet her quietly, but sit on the floor with her, and she thinks that's a signal that The Games Begin! And, with a DS, the games often involve the mouth. It's a work in progress.

So, you're going to have to help your kids develop some patience here. The time will most likely come when they can pet her and she'll behave, but it's not going to be any time real soon.

As far as the biting goes, I adamantly disagree that sport dogs can't be taught what is appropriate to bite, and when. Give your pup some appropriate outlets for the biting, like tug games, with rules that you enforce, of course. It takes time to teach those. And, I'd save tug for the adults for quite a long while. The kids aren't able to enforce the rules yet, let alone handle the targeting mistakes that inevitably happen with that game .

[Kristie E]

Ditto Ditto Ditto... I am with Christie and have concerns that you are saying the pups are aggressive. Also, I think that is no reason to allow any puppy to chew indiscriminately on you or your children. I know many trainers who will put obedience on their working dogs right away and others that don't ... there are many ways o skin a cat and still end up with what you want. I for one live and play with my dogs. So there will always be obedience especially in the areas of what and who get to chew on. When I got Gwen even though she was six months it was fairly obvious that she had some obedience. She knew what to chew on and what not.. and she came from a proven working dog breeder.

As for snuggly, well, maybe when Gwen is old.... I get drive by s from her. She runs in for a pet and a scratch and runs out... not much touching happening at all in the snuggle department. The longest I get to touch her is when she has passed out or I am brushing her which she really likes.

[tedge007]

Thanks to all those who replied, I appreciate it. I have already retained the services of a trainer and he is a veteran Master Trainer specializing in Working breeds with over 30 years experience. I would never of Imported a Dutch Shepherd from serious working lines without having a great trainer in place. When I say aggression I did not mean that the pup was being viscious or nasty to us. I meant she was showing alot of prey aggression and showing signs of dominance. If she was six months old I would be correcting her at certain times but at 9-10 weeks old she is too young. She cannot understand or properly accept much discipline at such a young age (according to my trainer). She is just playing at all times. My question was to mainly see if there were many other people out there with DS Pups that were experiencing the same things at such a young age. Thanks again for the responses.

[Kristie E]

Why is it that she can't understand or learn at such an early age??? I am confused. If she was in a pack she would be corrected by EVERYone that was older than her should she be misbehaving or acting in an unacceptable manner. As for what you meant by aggression I did understand what you were talking about and in my house, getting lippy wth me... (barking and growling in the situation you described) doesn't fly. LIke I have said a LOT this weekend, there is more than one way to skin a cat....

just one more quick note, If you don't care for and are questioning behavior at this age, It is gonna be a whole OTHER bag of worms at six months.. it doesn't go away, it evolves.

[Dutchringgirl]

I agree with Kristie 100%. The day I brought Sadie home at 4 months Thalie corrected her. I dont agree with not correcting, It could be a simple correction, but early on they need to know whats acceptable. I never had a problem with My DS and Mal biting great on the field and being respectable at home. Sadie is a terror with tugs and toys but when we play she knows what not to do. Sadie would play nibble and she got a correction. She figured it out. You cant let a pup be aggressive and then all of a sudden at 6 months expect them to take a correction, it will be much harder.

[Christie M]

Hey there-

Still hoping for a signature

Congrats on getting with a trainer that you trust. Many people come onto forums hoping for input so they can train their dogs themselves. There is nothing more valuable than insight from someone who knows what they are looking at and can see it first hand.

The only other thing that I will offer up is this - most people who train K9 or competition (I train for both) raise their dogs in a kennel situation. During puppy stages and foundation, the dogs are brought out to interact formally and then put back up again. They are not typically raised around many people, in a family and specifically around kids. They are not put into any of those situations until they have the skill sets to be successful there. The other advantange is that they don't learn that their bratty behavior can be self rewarded because nothing is more fun than 2-legged sqeaky toys (ie - children) when chewed on.

I have raised bite dogs both ways. With one of my dogs, I let her get away with murder and didn't put any real boundaries on her because I didn't want to inhibit her. The reality is, by the time I was told it was OK (by my professional trainer), I didn't have it in my to be "hard" enough to get that respect back. She is still a great dog and never had any dominance or behaviors to directly challenge me - Thank God. But there is no respect. A child will never have it in them to regain respect from a dog that has learned early on that they can be pushed around.

The old school method works to raise strong dogs. It absolutely does. But it is a method that was created for dogs who live in a box and go back in a box with little variables in the foundation stage. I do believe that strong working dogs can be raised in a home setting, but with boundaries and guidelines. That doesn't mean "correction" necessarily in the traditional sense. But it can certainly mean that there is only the respectful way to interact with humans (or at least the family) and anything disrespectful will result in a consequence (ie- time out, etc).

Good luck with your kid. As I said, I know you will make great progress and accomplish great things and we will all be thrilled to hear of your successes. Its very easy for me and everyone else to be an internet trainer! So please just know that everyone offers opinions, but only you will know what works for you and makes sense in your gut.

[Kristie E]

Christie makes some good points about how old school does it with their dogs. Come out, work, go back to the kennel. Lonnie was trained this way. My only complaint was that they missed the "social" piece and he was truly lacking. That said, he didn't eat anyone and he was quick on the uptake learning how to live with a family. I am going to borrow from Cory here who borrowed this from a trainer in Atlanta...
"I have noticed that people have made the mistake of confusing methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on the objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy." there is more than one way to skin a cat!!

I don't have the space for a kennel, nor do I want to keep my dog in the kennel. Although I have to say, if I did have space, WOW, I would have DOGS!!! ...

[tedge007]

Thanks again for the responses. I have been super busy and have not been on this forum for a long while. I just read the last few responses just now. So my little girl is now just over 4 months old. She has grown in many ways! I am happy to say that her "mouthyness" has settled down alot over the past few weeks, which is a wonderful thing for my kids! As far as her temperment goes, she is what she is. I have been going to training with her 2-3 times a week for the last month. My trainer along with everyone at the facility think that she is a "10" of a dog. I agree with them in many ways I got what I asked for. That is a strong working line dog for personal protection. I guess it's true that sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for cause you might just get it! My dog comes from serious lines that were bred specifically for Police Work. I want a dog that has all the ablilties but is still an angel in the house with the family. I have been told one day this can be the case but it's not going to happen overnight. She is somewhat social to strangers while on walks and she can be affectionate with the innediate family from time to time. However for the most part she just wants to work, chase a ball on a stick , bite on a tug etc. This desire is NON STOP! These are all good qualities that I have no problem with and welcome. As far as the behavior issues with her getting nasty with us, they still pop up here and there. We have been working on it though. I actually was able to speak directly with the breeder of her mother in the netherlands. He explained to me that with his dogs you must always speak softly. Never yell, it has the opposite effect on the dog . I can scream at my Sch II Doberman and she will run in her crate and hide. If you yell at "lily" she yells back at you. If you do not have her on a leash at all times and she runs into the house and you grab her from behind she will get nasty with you (not bite, "yet" but bark and growl more like a scream very aggressive not a nervous growl). At this point she is Always on a lead while in the house. My main focus now is continuing to socialize her as much as possible. I have faith in the trainer and my family and I are commited in seeing the training through. In the meantime we control the amount of time that the dog is around my kids. We generally allow them to play together outside once a day and we allow them to just pet her calmly in the house each evening. This has worked well so far. I will be sure and keep you all up to date on her progress. Thanks again for the insights.

[Schlussdibusti]

Hi Tom:
Super to hear about the progress. I think it is great that you enlisted the help of a trainer at an early age.

I adopted my DS from the local pound last summer when he was already 1 year old and was picked up as a stray. His previous owner "missed the boat" with training and probably could not handle him anymore when he got older. He had a "mouthy" habit as well. But we took care of it with lots of structured tug toy play, obedience training and wearing the little sucker out on the beach!

I also read about the breed that yelling does not work well with them.

[Kristie E]

Funny you say that about not yelling at a DS.. I tell Gwen to SHUT UP (or shut yer pie hole ) and she clams right up...

[Marjolein]

I also read about the breed that yelling does not work well with them.

That's funny, in every Dutch book about the breed it is stated that they do not give a rats *** about physical corrections, but are very sensitive to handelrs mood and voice

Tom, I am SO curious from what line your pup comes, did I miss it? Which counry did you import her from, Holland?

[tedge007]

She is not an Import she was born here in the states. Both parents were direct imports both from holland. Her mother is Van Leeuwen and her father was Le Droby. Both parents were hand picked by the breeder I purchased from. From all the research I have done so far, it seems that her slightly flammable temperment comes more from the van leeuwen side. My pups grandfather was Wibo and I hear he has quite the reputation. My pup has incredible drives, I have never seen such drive in a young pup before. I have been lucky in owning two very high drive German Import Dobermans over the last 15 years, and I thought they were very special but you cannot compare the drives this dutchie girl blows them away! We were allowed to watch a belgium ring class at my trainers the other night. I had my pup off to the side far behind the adult dogs which were mainly mals with a few shepherds. My 4 month old was going crazy and screaming to get the sleeve finally the trainer stopped and gave her a quick bite she had NEVER before bit a sleeve just tugs she flew down and leaped on the sleeve like a veteran she received a full round of applause, it was great!

[Marjolein]

I know Wibo, we were pretty "close" once

me and Wibo:


Who is the dobry dog?

I was almost sure you had a v Leeuwen just reading the story... These dogs were bred to be VERY dominant, and need good guidance/leadership. I always wanted one, and might get one once, but I believe I am not ready for this type of dog right now

[tedge007]

Jasko is from Bayca X Basco. George hern who is an Air Force K9 Handler and the breeder of my pup says that the dobry line must of had alot to do with her being over the top because his direct v leeuwen import (my pups mother) is not nearly as sharp. All of these pups, are over the top. As a matter of fact he informed me that one of the males that went to texas locked on to his owners arm a few weeks back, the owner i guess had the natural reflex to pull away (bad move) and required 8 stitches afterwards. Hearing me talk about these dogs one might think they were viscious and mentally unstable little monsters but this really is not the case (atleast with my female) I still believe her to be clear headed. She will also allow strangers to pet her while on walks. This is not the case all of the time but most recently she showed a social side. Providing she approaches the stranger instead of him/her approaching her. She will lick and let them pet her. If I keep her occupied all the time and have her on lead she is under control the problems that I have had with her or my family members in mainly when attempting to pick her up from behind (as in her running in house and us chasing after her) or sometimes putting her away in her crate. Most people in my world have no idea why I would ever want a dog like this as a pet and think Im nuts but I am sure many people on here better understand.

[Marjolein]

sounds like v Leeuwen behaviour, at 5 weeks old, all they want is to bite, anywhere. And to be honest, there's more v Leeuwen in your dog than you think