Training/Control advice

[DAZ111]

Hello

Im a walker at a rescue centre, Ive had (owned) Rottweilers, GSD x and collies before but the rescue have a dutch and I was hoping your forum would be able to help me and offer some advice to make his stay a little easier!!

Hes a male, 6yrs old, Was handed in at a rescue by his first owner with no history about the dog, Returned by his second owner! Again no history, and then made it to the rescue centre I work at and has been there for two years

Ive now had my mandatory introductions with him and have finally been accepted by him and allowed to exercise/walk him and just wondered if you would be able to give me any breed specific advice? Obviously he has all the standard Dutch breed traits and these are all exaggerated by kennel life at present so he's pretty wired most of the time.

Once he's actually out on a walk he's good as gold, really good actually. Its just getting him out and putting a lead on thats the issue! Specifically this -

1/ On approaching his kennel he gets super excited, we've been waiting/commanding a sit before entering and rewarding his compliance with a tasty treat but his calm/compliance 'state' only last milliseconds!!

2/ Second issue is putting a lead on him, According to this kennels rules all dogs have to be walked with a leash attached to a collar AND a leash attached to a harness, So the whole procedure has to be done twice. As soon as you present a leash his excitement explodes and he either gets grabby or usually begins 'tug of war' with the leash/harness.


Any advice/tips/comments greatly appreciated!!! Ive read what I can on the breed and im aware that negative discipline is not the way to go but im wondering if im being too soft with him? On the occasions he's tried to grab me my sub conscience response has been to issue a very firm NO! and he does seem to listen, im just concerned How stern I can go? especially only being an infrequent visitor into his life.

Obviously everything is made worse by his current position, if he were my dog you'd have 24/7 to form a bond and really get to know each other but we've got to work with what we've got and he's got to be exercised so here we are!

Thankyou for your time

Darren

Ps. If any experienced owners want a super rescue, he's your guy!! He really does have a decent heart and we've shared some very relaxed moments together but does need an experienced home.

[centrop67]

Let's see if we can get this guy a forever home! Can you provide pictures and information on contacting the rescue? Is there possibly a link to more information? An adoption application?

Over excitement is probably a given for a dog like this living full time in a kennel. You have to work the over excitement with lots of patience and baby steps.

1. Divide the approach, collaring, and leashing into distinct action steps.
2. Don't move to the next step until the dog gives you the desired behavior.
3. Go back a step if the dog gets too excited.
4. Practice this every time. Every time (Consistency is key).

If it is a Dutch Shepherd this will really test your patience. I clocked 30 minutes firmly holding the tug the first time I taught my Radar the out command. I almost wore out before he did.

You should incorporate something other than treats as a reward - possibly a tug toy. This should provide a distraction from biting the leash as you move through the steps. I would recommend getting a double-handled tube tug made out of jute or bite-suit material. Use both the food treats and tug as a reward. You might even find the dog values the tug more than the treats, and then you've unlocked a secret to additional training approaches.

[ladyjubilee]

First, thank you for helping this dog. Volunteers like you are doing great work.

Has anyone reached out to see if the Dutch Shepherd rescue has a foster home that might be able to take him, if a forever home can't be found?

I don't know how much time you can spend with him, and I'm certainly no dog expert. However, I think for a dog stuck in a kennel for two years the excitement level probably starts BEFORE the kennel door is even opened, especially if he is "just" being walked. Its, "a human!", "a human coming towards me", "a human at the door", all mixed with anticipation. So my guess is before you can really see the escalation, he's already around a 5. Then on that excitment comes the walk. I had issues with Bramvlble wiggling and jiggling when it was service dog get up time. The trainer told me it was because she was at level 5 before I got to her. There was too much lead up and I was missing the signs.

Too, at least two of this dog's basic needs aren't being met (not a criticism but a reality of life in a shelter for this breed.) Physically, there is no way he is getting enough exercise via a walk. Bramble can go for a walk, play fetch/disc with me followed by fetch with my son, run with Casper, and race the neighbors' dogs. She wears out all 4 dogs....and still wants to play. She has energy, and my guess is so does this guy.

Next, he doesn't have a job. I didnt understand what working dog meant until we had Bramble start working as a service dog. It was night and day. Suddenly all the wild energy had focus...and like right now when her job is harder to do, she gets a little, um, frisky.

So....I have two suggestions. Depending on how much time you have with the dog, can you take time to just sit with him from out of the kennel, offering calm praise as he settles? This might add reward for being calm. My guess is you've already taken ownership of the door and are using leader body language, so maybe this might help encourage the calm.

And during this time could you add mental stimulation to try and meet energy needs? Like touch pad training or mental games, something to give purpose? Bramble likes the game where she has to sniff which had has the treat. Casper likes to sniff for treats in a room (in this dogs case kennel.)

But if you share his information, maybe someone will finally get the great dog they are looking to adopt.

[DAZ111]

Hello

Thank you all for your quick replies and kind words My apologies for the long reply!!

Yes! well spotted, Im in the UK, I just noticed this may be USA based?

Ill try and answer all your replies in turn if possible, Firstly if you'd like to see pictures and follow his story heres a link to his page on the rescue -

https://www.rescueremediesdogrescue.co. ... 97c72992bb

He's been in rescue (with us) for so long as I believe the owners have a very strict and responsible attitude to homing the dogs and they will only home a dog with a family/owner they deem suitable, The rescue is also predominantly there to help 'last chance' dogs, meaning dogs that are generally not your average family pet eg. spaniel or Labrador etc... and specialise in the more awkward to home area of breeds eg. bull breeds etc.. and they would rather wait for the correct home rather than home to the wrong person which could result in the dog being put into a dangerous situation. obviously Dutch herders require a very specific type of owner and also require more than just a standard UK home and garden (generally quite small), obviously the home size could be overlooked if the dog were to be worked properly. I think this year they have now homed around 100 dogs so far. Yes a foster programme exists but I don't think there has been a suitable applicant yet. I think some people have already contacted the Dutch rescue but ill double check.

Kennel excitement level - on approaching his kennel id say he's more of an 8!! (out of 10) yes your quite right, any promise of human contact or a walk and he's already way up there, presenting the lead just adds the last 2 on top.

Yes, agreed again, he is lacking purpose in his current situation, an unfortunate consequence of ending up in this predicament. He has got a great spot in the kennel though with lots to look at and is right next to the kennel hands area so gets lots of human contact as well.

Agreed, A 'walk' doesn't really cut it with these dogs, im going to try and spend some more time with him going forward but at the moment with the lockdown some walkers cant attend which has cut numbers a bit, they have around 45 dogs in at the moment and each one receives an actual walk every day so theres quite a lot to get round.

We usually take him into the exercise paddock innitially to let him burn off some energy pre-walk, this time also involves quiet/calm time for hugs and back scratches! and in the summer time in his paddling pool! Even after this period of time the introduction of a leash gets him right back to 10/10 for excitement. Im guessing this is where the patience bit comes in? If I were dealing with a 'normal' dog I would remove the lead until the dog was calm and sitting still and then try again, I would imagine this would take some time with Shadow!! This is also where I fall short of knowledge in correcting this breed of dog, a stern approach seems to work but im such a small part of his life I don't know how far to push it. He seems to already know Sit, paw, beg and down so I was thinking maybe 'Wait' would be a good one to learn? hopefully mastering that would maybe stop the Grabbing at lead time? At the moment I can keep his attention for a grand 3 or 4 seconds before he gets given the treat!! anymore than that and he gets bored.

Tug toy reward - Given his packaged up energy levels would this not raise his excitement even more? Maybe this could be used in the exercise area pre or post walk during training? ive never used tug as a reward before, it may well work as a distraction from attaching the leash but if he's mid-play his energy's going to be way up and would probably redirect to my arm when I connect the leash! Not in an aggressive way, Just grabby.

I know theres no golden answer here given time spent with a dog in rescue is so brief, and I appreciate that probably the only real answer would be hours upon hours together in a paddock! But any advice comes greatly appreciated

Thanks again for all your time and input

Darren

[ladyjubilee]

One thing I would suggest is using that paddock time for "work". Give him something to do.

Its is somewhat ironic that we learn of Shadow's situation now. We just had a discussion on the rescue conundrum. These dogs should have an experienced owner....but how do owners get experienced? I was totally unprepared for Bramble. On paper, our family would probably be on the bottom of the list for a DS. The only thing we have going for us is a big backyard. But Bramble is exactly the dog for our family.

There are some UK members, so hopefully this will inspire some interest.

[centrop67]

I posted Shadow's information in the rescue thread, and I also shared the information on this site's Facebook page.

Here's a picture of Shadow for Context:

[DAZ111]

Hi everyone,

Thanks again for all your help and time, thats great he's being promoted for adoption! It would be soo nice to see him homed

Thats all great advice, I agree theres probably not enough time to devote to intense training but theres definitely already opportunity to reward calm behaviour as at various stages of the paddock time he comes over for interaction so I will work on that, hopefully some of that calm reward can be transferred to leash time.

Ill try and think of some exercise ideas, he's got no interest in ball play but im not sure if theres enough time to have productive tug games, im presuming playing tug without having the time to properly educate the dog on 'how and when' to play tug nicely might just encourage bad habits? Its a shame as that would definitely be No.1 on his list on enjoyment!!

Yes the homing aspect is difficult, I don't have anything to do with the homing applications or the process, but I would guess in this guys case it would be no children, a large garden or land would be ideal, especially if there was a perimeter fence to patrol as he loves that! In terms of experience, I would think a history of German shepherds and working breeds would be desirable as he's definitely not the dog for a first time handler or people that have only had small 'pet' dogs before. As I said, I have nothing to do with the homing process and these are only my personal views, my point about children is only because mistakes can happen and actions can be misunderstood, he has never shown any sign of aggression that I know of, just masses of excitable energy the same as most Ducth's!

Thanks again

Darren

[ladyjubilee]

So....any chance you could keep Shadow? You do seem to have a heart for this dog.

[DAZ111]

Hello,

Id love to home him but unfortunately my current house isn't suitable, Good news today though, The kennel has put me in touch with a guy who was fundamental in Shadows training when he first came to the kennel, He's an experienced handler and he's very Kindly agreed to come down the kennel this week and show me some techniques, He's spent hours and days training him but unfortunately lives nearly 2hrs away so doesn't come down as much as he'd like.

I must say as well just incase anyone was wondering, I am not the only person dealing with Shadow, there are lots more people that put in far more hours than me and are very experienced with handling large breed dogs, I was just after expanding my knowledge on this breed and the best way to help him in this situation

Darren

[ladyjubilee]

That is great....hopefully, though, he new owners will show up soon

[DAZ111]

Ah I hope so Thanks all for helping spread the news of Shadow! It would be amazing to find his new home

[borellar15]

Walk up to the kennel with leash and equipment in hand open kennel door and then close it and walk away. Do this several times. Reward with FOOD if he is calm. If not calm, sit down close to kennel with equipment and pay no attention to him. If he settles reward with food and walk away. When you get to the point to where you can approach -calm- open door- still calm THEN you can let him out. You need to get it in his mind that you+leash does NOT ALWAYS equal walks. And get in the habit of not letting him out every time the door opens.

Aside from that yes the dog needs a ton of mental and physical stimulation that he’s not getting so that’s a problem but he needs to learn proper exiting procedures.

[Tim91118]

That was good advise.

[ladyjubilee]

I like that idea.

[DAZ111]

Hi Everyone,

Thats really good advice thank you, Had a really good couple of hours with the trainer and watched and learnt a lot! With patience and perseverance Shadow will sit and wait while you enter, and as posted above its a case of waiting for his excitement levels to lower a few notches before entering and then trying to sustain that lower level while he is prepared for exit.

Its also been decided to take it back a couple of stages and muzzle him for the harness and exit procedure, not from an aggression standpoint but just to stop any unintended contact if his excitement levels rise and he goes to grab a leash etc... The harness is then removed shortly after exiting the kennel block as a reward for good behaviour.

I completely agree that calm visits will also help him to greet people with better manners and hopefully he'll start to realise that calmness equals human time and rewards!

Thanks again for all you input Hopefully we can get this guy homed!

Darren