Maybe getting a DS

[Raven]

Ditto on not being forgiving beasts.

The one thing that I do not have to worry about is others in the house causing bad behaviors.

Edit added:
Good! Because of their breeding, though, once they understand you are their person and that is their house (and their yard, car, etc.), people coming in the house generally have to be introduced slowly.

There are those on this forum (past and present) who had solidly trained dogs, but b/c these beasts are so intuitive, there were people the dogs simply did not like. (Some folks found out later what their dogs were picking up on and the owners had no knowledge of.) Some folks ignored their dogs' warnings (easy to do) and ended up in harm's way.

At best, they'll remain aloof to strangers, but will take intruders (perceived or otherwise) very seriously.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Pretty much. I once accidentally taught my dude that when I say "jump" it means to come to a heel and then go towards the jump. Because I rewarded this behavior twice. TWICE. Timing becomes even more critical when dealing with the aggression/drives that comes out around 6 months. I have a stories about some of the more idiotic screw ups I did with bad timing. Corrected myself fast enough but it was too late. They're also a breed that once they tend to learn something at a younger age, it becomes foundation and fixing it is a pain. Not to say they can't - just make sure you teach something correctly the first time. My dude still halts about a foot in front of me when I call him/ask him to sit because that's how I taught him when he was a wee pup.

Pretty much these dogs are handler sensitive (exception to hard dogs), handler level hard (by this I mean they'll test your skills as a handler), wicked smart in all the right AND wrong ways, and VERY protective. They will alert you to every change around you. People coming over, unless properly exposed, can be a hassle - I have to do formal introductions with H unless it's a handyman then he's just put up. People walking on the sidewalk can be seen as intruders. They work - which means they still watch, alert, and are willing to fight over threats, real or what they think are. Some of the shops around me know when I walk in with H they can shake my hand, take things I hand them, stand next to me, but if they enter my personal space without me extending an arm or other show of welcome, H snarls. That's why exposure and controlled settings are important at a young age - you're teaching them what's good and what's bad, and also to NOT react on their own without your guidance.

[Raven]

That's why exposure and controlled settings are important at a young age - you're teaching them what's good and what's bad, and also to NOT react on their own without your guidance.

Dang, Kira! This is exactly what I kept trying to say but it wouldn't come out right, so I jabbered hoping eventually my brain would force out the words. NOT.

Some of these things we say on here should be in a Things You Should Know section sticky, instead of the rinse, wash, repeat we do.

Does anyone see value in dedicating a general sticky to Things To Know?

[Dutchringgirl]

Yeah, Kira said it right on the money. No one EVER better come up to me and give me a pat on the back!!!! Thalie will be attached to their leg in no time.

I second a sticky on this stuff !!!!!! there are alot of newbies coming around and this way we dont have to repeat ourselves, sometimes its fun because new stories come out, but then they can read it over and ask other questions that come of it.

[Raven]

I second a sticky on this stuff !!!!!!

Let's hit up Eric and Bob and go from there.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

I third the sticky!

Lol I'm happy my brain was able to stumble on the right word combo! H has been killing me with toxic fumes today so I'm having "babble brain" from lack of oxygen...

[Raven]

See...here's an example where people get confused.

and also to NOT react on their own without your guidance.

Then....this:

No one EVER better come up to me and give me a pat on the back!!!! Thalie will be attached to their leg in no time.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

I think this depends partially on past training - Lisa didn't Thalie do Ring with you and that's a one of the scenarios, right? Stranger comes up and dog must attack on decoy's attack and be neutral on a handshake/greeting? In this case it could be seen as a "guided response" if it's been previously trained. Also depends on the purpose of the dog - sport dogs are different from PPD dogs and are different from agility dogs and from S&R dogs.

For H, I don't want him to bite unless I say so. In my work there's a bit too much unpredictability to let him rely on his own decisions of when to bite. For a dog not in PPD or bitesports, I don't want it biting ANYONE at ANY time, therefore I would "guide it" to not do so. For sports I would "guide it" for a specific scenarios. Same for PPD to bite on command or at certain situations. For homes that want an "active pet" but can also "protect when needed" you've essentially set up conflicting behavior patterns (is it okay to bark at that man but not this one? How come I can bite that dude but not this girl? I'm supposed to bark at people moving fast but not the little ones?) unless you're training very specific scenarios/commands and that is made clear from the start via cues/commands/habits. But that's just my thought process on it.

[Dutchringgirl]

See...here's an example where people get confused.

and also to NOT react on their own without your guidance.

Then....this:

No one EVER better come up to me and give me a pat on the back!!!! Thalie will be attached to their leg in no time.

This is from Ringsport training, The defense of handler trains them that at an audible hit, they bite. All of the work is with no voice or handler command ( once they are trained as to what to do) So in the trial, Thalie is on my left ( no leash, collar) we walk up to the decoy ( bad person) When I say "HI" that is Thalies cue to go to my right leg and face back, we say " bye " and start to walk, then the bad person turns around to Hit me ( mug me , steal my purse, or what have you) At the audible hit, that is The cue to bite.

With the Ring training, its all about the dog learning to act on their own with a cue, sometimes verbal "Attack" or an audible sound.

Also, anything that looks like a decoy, they guy in the animal suit outside of Dunkin Donuts advertising a free coffee, is very enticing to Thalie.

[Dutchringgirl]

I think this depends partially on past training - Lisa didn't Thalie do Ring with you and that's a one of the scenarios, right? Stranger comes up and dog must attack on decoy's attack and be neutral on a handshake/greeting? In this case it could be seen as a "guided response" if it's been previously trained. Also depends on the purpose of the dog - sport dogs are different from PPD dogs and are different from agility dogs and from S&R dogs.

For H, I don't want him to bite unless I say so. In my work there's a bit too much unpredictability to let him rely on his own decisions of when to bite. For a dog not in PPD or bitesports, I don't want it biting ANYONE at ANY time, therefore I would "guide it" to not do so. For sports I would "guide it" for a specific scenarios. Same for PPD to bite on command or at certain situations. For homes that want an "active pet" but can also "protect when needed" you've essentially set up conflicting behavior patterns (is it okay to bark at that man but not this one? How come I can bite that dude but not this girl? I'm supposed to bark at people moving fast but not the little ones?) unless you're training very specific scenarios/commands and that is made clear from the start via cues/commands/habits. But that's just my thought process on it.

Ok, only a bit of brain matter oozing out of my ear.


My two, had intense Ring Training, our Mal had police training and up to Ring 3.

[Stacy_R]

Pretty much. I once accidentally taught my dude that when I say "jump" it means to come to a heel and then go towards the jump. Because I rewarded this behavior twice. TWICE. Timing becomes even more critical when dealing with the aggression/drives that comes out around 6 months. I have a stories about some of the more idiotic screw ups I did with bad timing. Corrected myself fast enough but it was too late. They're also a breed that once they tend to learn something at a younger age, it becomes foundation and fixing it is a pain. Not to say they can't - just make sure you teach something correctly the first time.

Truth. And then when you try to fix it or correct it, they give you the "you're doing it wrong" look... sigh...

[Stacy_R]

That's why exposure and controlled settings are important at a young age - you're teaching them what's good and what's bad, and also to NOT react on their own without your guidance.

Dang, Kira! This is exactly what I kept trying to say but it wouldn't come out right, so I jabbered hoping eventually my brain would force out the words. NOT.

Some of these things we say on here should be in a Things You Should Know section sticky, instead of the rinse, wash, repeat we do.

Does anyone see value in dedicating a general sticky to Things To Know?

Ditto. And yes.

[Raven]

For homes that want an "active pet" but can also "protect when needed" you've essentially set up conflicting behavior patterns

And this is one of those things that scares me most when I hear people want a home protection dog.

[Dutchringgirl]

For homes that want an "active pet" but can also "protect when needed" you've essentially set up conflicting behavior patterns

And this is one of those things that scares me most when I hear people want a home protection dog.

Me too!!!!!!!! What many people dont understand is that by just having a dog, that is protection. My parents have always had Basset hounds, now, you laugh, but there is no way you can sneak up on their house, and if she heard you and barked, you would think there is a HUGE dog in there, they have big chests and BIG barks.

[TexasDobe]

I hear people who want a Doberman all the time to go to PPD training. Then I tell them it is like having a loaded gun in the house that the only way to lock it up is to crate it. Not a 100% accurate but for most people who do not know a lot on how to read a dog and training I see it some what true. Then the problems with finding a trainer that really knows what they are doing and not someone who says they do. A dog that barks will make most people think twice and go after a home with no dogs to worry about. A barking dog is better then a ADT system in my mind. Who would really want to see if a 70 pound dog will bit when they can go some where else. I know of a lot of people that will see me walking my girl down the street and they will cross it so they are as far as they can get from her. She will most likely just beg for a butt rub.

I guess we move this topic to protection training from just comments on training. I am not even planning on doing any protection work or need/want a dog to protect me. I think we see eye to eye on this topic.

[Raven]

While it's like talking to a wall, I always advocate folks getting a dog that suits their lifestyle rather than a dog for "protection" since the act of having a dog is often enough deterrent. Did I mention it's like talking to a wall? It's a point you recently brought up, Lisa...getting a (certain) dog b/c that's what you want, not b/c it's what's best for a (certain) dog. (You said it much better.)

[Raven]

Tex, we cross-posted...and yes, your thread has been hi-jacked a little.

Anything else you'd like to address?

[Dutchringgirl]

Right Sharon, people do things because THEY WANT to, not because its best for the animal. My best friend and I have become huge advocates for this in the horse world. but it does bleed into anything that involves animals. People did Ring sport so THEY could have the shiny trophy and say that THEIR dog has the best bite etc, but when I saw what went into the training, I stopped.

But yes, getting a dog to protect them and then looking for the baddest and greatest protection dog when they have no idea what than means, and what kind of dog that is, then they get upset when the dog goes up the leash on them.

A Basset hound will protect the house just as much as a DS if all someone wants is to protect the house. And a Basset will be more of a pet and family dog than a DS.

[LyonsFamily]

I am wanting papers because I will want to wait longer then I believe it will take to start to entering events. Do some of the easy fun stuff like rally.

You don't need FCI/AKC papers for that. AKC has the PAL program in place for purebreds without AKC papers. For AKC PAL, the dog just has to be neutered. You can compete in all dog sports except conformation. I have PAL papers on Elli and she was bred from UKC parents. There's also a ton of other sport programs that don't require any papers. I'm a big fan of USDAA for agility and their Rally program. Both of my dogs are titled in USDAA's Cynosport Rally program, I'm also a licensed Rally judge through them. They do not require any papers or pedigree, just online registration through them. There's also CPE agility that is the same way. CPE and USDAA offer more fun games aside from Standard agility which are great to get started in.

UKC has a program similar to PAL, but they do not requiring neutering anymore, even for mixed breeds. They offer most of the same sports as AKC, plus nosework.

You will still get a quality dog from many of the UKC breeders here. In some instances, you may get a much better dog since they breed for more than just papers. Health testing and titled/working parents are what you want to look for in this breed. Christie has UKC dogs, as does Cher Car, Von der King. Les and Asheley also have the option to UKC register your dogs and as far as I know, most of their puppy buyers compete in UKC events since UKC is the main registry for DS here.

[LyonsFamily]

From the reading I been doing it seems the biggest problem with the DS is training and mostly socialization not being done enough. Would you you all agree with this statement?

I wouldn't agree with that. There's only so much training and socializing you can do. My dogs can behave at events, but can be reactive with a bad handler and they don't tolerate some strangers or strange dogs. The only reason why they're not a problem is that don't set them up to fail.

I think the biggest problem with the DS is expectations. Too many people think if they "socialize" them or train them to not be aggressive, that they can be handled by anyone and approached by strange dogs and live a happy dog park going life. That's not in their nature and they're not Golden Retrievers. I had to learn this too once I got Odin. I came from the land of hunting dogs where everything is expected to hunt in packs and get along with multiple dogs in the field and multiple handlers.

The DS are not bred to be extremely social and no amount of socialization/exposure/training will change that. Owners need to keep them away from certain situations, mange them with new people and new animals, especially in the home, and just be realistic with what the dog is capable of doing. My dogs are crated when company is over. Yes, I could command them in a place command and keep them under obedience control the entire time, but they don't enjoy the company of strangers, especially children, and it's not fair to put them in that environment. These are usually 1 person dogs and they're also herders, so they like to control the situation.