Maybe getting a DS

[TexasDobe]

I live in Fort Worth, TX. I have been a part of Doberman Rescue for years and had to deal with all types of problems. I have come good at reading dogs. I am single so no need to worry about the evil puppy stage of biting. I been thinking about getting a DS because I do like higher energy dogs but a Mal maybe a little too much. I also like the fact that the AKC has not ruin the breed yet (not a fan of show breeders). I plan on doing OB and Agility (maybe SAR). I been to a few of the IPO clubs down here and I really did not like what I saw. One was great but just could not get in their group for what ever reason. I would rather never do IPO then train or see training that makes me sick. I know they are a ton of work and I believe I am up for the challenge. I do have a few question about the breed in general if you do not mind answering.

Is same sex aggression a problem in the breed? (Doberman males it is and have not seen anything about it in this breed)
Health problems? (they seem to be a very health breed but wondering what are the problems if any)
View on Les Flores and his dogs? (Have not seen anything bad so far.)
Any other FCI or AKC FSS breeders I should look at?

[Dutchringgirl]

You are up for the challenge, what if it proves to be too much for you?

I did agility with Thalie and it was a blast ! I did ring sport for a while but didnt go above Ring 2 because of the training, too much and just bad stuff so I hear ya on that one.

I have two females, You do have to watch them around feeding time but other than that, they are fine. Sadie (4.5) thinks she is the leader of the pack but Thalie (13) keeps her in line and reminds her that she isnt.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Welcome fellow Texan!

These guys are definitely a lot different than dobes! It can be a very entertaining and, uh, alcoholic journey if you do choose to get a DS. Thank you for researching the breed! I encourage you to meet some too, there's a few local to the DFW area.

Same sex aggression depends on the dog/s but mostly these are working and protection dogs so I tend to describe them as dog-specific. Dog aggression is a common problem in the breed but training and understanding the dog's personalities tend to help solve that problem. There are some which are super social but most seem to fall into the category of dog-specific/not really caring for other dog company - but I should point out this seems to apply mostly to dogs that are not in the home.

There's a thread about Dutch Health Ailments in the Medical section where we list out some of the more common health issues but pretty much they're healthy.

Les Flores has good dogs and there's a few members on here with his dogs. Keep in mind when selecting a dog be VERY honest and specific about what you want to do - more so than most breeds telling a DS breeder and being honest with them lets them accurately select the right pup for you. I personally have seen a few cases nationally where the person said they wanted a protection dog but could not handle the pup that was chosen.

If you want a registered dog I would go with UKC as it's a bit more common here than AKC or FCI (I think only one breeder is AKC registering, if that). FCI lines tend to be different then KNPV lines as the dogs are bred for looks. Not saying an FCI dog can't beat a KNPV dog in a sport, but it seems to me they're a bit more "watered" down in the work department. Again, that's an unqualified observation on my part. I believe Cher Car, Les Flores, and Vandalia UKC register most if not all of their pups.

Unfortunately TX lacks in certain bite sport clubs. Be sure to do the same checking out of agility training centers/trainers as you do the sport clubs - some of them have never trained a true working dog, so it gets... interesting... I may be able to assist you with some agility trainer names around DFW if you need.

[TexasDobe]

I do know a really good agility trainer in my area. She mostly does Dobermans and Collies. I would not mind hearing some of the trainers you like in my area. I also have been to a few IPO seminars and will most likely go to more with the DS just because I really like some the tips I get in them. They really good at working dogs in drive.
The same sex aggression was something I thought might their and just have to watch out for and never give it a change to happen. If they are never in that spot then it is easier to control. I hate dog parks so that is not a problem. My female will go after any dog for looked at her food wrong. So feed in crates for everyone safety.
Les Flores is AKC registered and to register with the AKC they have to come from FCI lines. I heard a lot of the KNPV DS are Mal crosses. A little less drive would not be that bad of a thing too. I agree fully that you need to be 100% realistic with breeder on what you will be doing with the dog when dealing with working line dogs.
Texas does have a ton of events for dogs just lack good bite sport clubs. I do like what I have seen in the PSA clubs down here. Just figure I will not plan on doing bite sport and work more on control before moving into that field. Maybe next dog.
I would really like to meet a DS in my area. So if anyone wants to send an invite to me I would be more then happy to take it.

[Dutchringgirl]

bite work is fine at the lower levels, I did Ring 2 and was fine, I didnt train like " THEY " do. That just meant I didnt win or wont come in the top two, but I did love the bite work and what it taught me and my dog. Alot of the training made me feel alot more comfortable in the real world. Not that I live in a high threat area or do police work, it was just nice to know my dog could take care of the situation. Its like knowing self defense.

With two females, it really depends on the dogs. Thalie is low drive, super secure in herself, Sadie is polar oposite, Very insecure and wants to show that she knows her job. Thalie lets Sadie watch the house now and do the protection work, like keep us safe from leaves and snakes skins in the back yard.

When feeding they are in the same room but apart, and when done, Thalie must check sadies bowl, Sadie will lift her lip but Thalie just ignores her, Thalie wont take any S*!# from Sadie, I will step in if I see it going to turn south. Other than that, they get along just fine, If Sadie barks to much, Thalie will tell her to be quiet.

I think if you had two high drive same sex it may be more of a concern? Not sure. Mine are far in age as well.

You really sound like you are on the ball, that is good with this breed.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

That's good - I was once told by an agility trainer that the DS were like Collies on crack and the mals were like 3 collies on crack lol. I wouldn't recommend the any PSA clubs around Dallas to someone getting started in bite sport. There's one club that I believe is fairly protection minded without being in a "sport" which is good. You may see more same sex aggression when you start getting into bite sport dogs as those dogs require more drives in certain areas to compete; not always true but it is something to take into consideration. KNPV is basically all DSx or Malx (mixes), while registered (FCI, AKC, UKC) are pure. I think the saying now is that if there's Mal anywhere in the blood makes it a DSx, not purebred, but the argument is a long standing one amongst the FCI/KNPV camps, and changes frequently from X generations of all DS to no mal at all to everything in-between. If you aren't set on a pup, you can also talk to NADSR, or there's another lady who works privately and does a lot of work placements of DS/Mals who always has something. Some breeders may also have green dogs too. Benefit is known personality and drives and a bit easier to get used to the breed. Just as a suggestion, but I'm sure you already know that working in rescue yourself!

[LyonsFamily]

Les Flores has FCI dogs as does Asheley Winters (McCleary?) I'm assuming you're wanting AKC papers to do AKC agility without neutering? We compete in USDAA and UKC agility, but Elli just got her PAL number since she's spayed and will start doing AKC stuff soon. She's not an FCI dog. They do have a lot more to offer, but you can always compete with an altered dog and have it come from UKC or mixed lines.

[TexasDobe]

I do not believe that doing protection sports make the dog any less stable (if anything more). They have to be stable to do it from the start or you may make a fear biter in the end. I just do not want to try too much and get nothing done. So stick with the basics and as I become a better handler and advance from their.
I am planning on getting a male because male female combos seem to work better. My female is fix so I do not have to worry about puppies. Females seem to deal with other females better then males with males from what I have seen. The older ones run things most of the time. Males seem to fight for pecking order.
I do not need or want my dog to ever need to take care of a situation. Their is a reason I carry. Less likely dog to get hurt and legal reason too. But my female has corner someone who entered my house once. He had to leave and come back in before she settle down. She is very insecure too. They will make you a lair all the time.
I am wanting papers because I will want to wait longer then I believe it will take to start to entering events. Do some of the easy fun stuff like rally. The only reason I am not planing on going the rescue route this time is I want a well breed dog. I know all about rescues and not trying to down them but it is not really what I am looking for this time. My female is also takes a month to get use to a new dog in the house and a puppy is a lot easy to deal with her in the mix. Less likely a fight will happen. She is all bark but the other dog may not know that and has gotten me bitten a few times. Got to love redirection of frustration. I do not see my house as a great home to bring a high drive adult in. She needs to learn that she can trust the new dog. She does great with the puppies I have helped raise over the years and fosters that stayed for a while. I feel like a wacko saying a puppy is easier then an adult but it is in this house.
From the reading I been doing it seems the biggest problem with the DS is training and mostly socialization not being done enough. Would you you all agree with this statement?

[Dutchringgirl]

HA that’s funy, I always think it’s the Collies that are on crack.

Who said that protection sports make the dog less stable?? HA they do make the dog stable and teach them and the handler a lot!
What do you mean “ try to much and get nothing done?” Early protection work is mostly OB anyway and some biting but on a harness and just working on outs.
Its not that socialization is not being done enough, Its just that Socialization is a human term and it’s the humans that want the dogs to be social, dogs are not social, they may like other dogs but that is just them liking the dogs. Both of mine are not social , Thalie ignores everyone and Sadie hates everyone. It has nothing to do with bringing her around other dogs as a pup, she didn’t like them then and dosnt like them now at 4. So don’t force what the dog dosnt want. As long as they get along with the other dogs in the house, that’s fine.

What do you mean the biggest problem with them is training?? They are not hard to train, you must be consistant and do your homework, they are working dogs and pick things up easy ( good and bad)

[Stacy_R]

From the reading I been doing it seems the biggest problem with the DS is training and mostly socialization not being done enough. Would you you all agree with this statement?

To agree to disagree would depend largely on exactly what you mean...and why...

Training is not an issue...they are uber smart and pick up on things wicked fast. If you're not careful, they can easily reverse roles and train their humans and you don't even know it until it's too late...

Socialization, like Lisa said, is a human term that we have unfairly put on our k9 companions. The level of such "socialization" required depends largely on what situations you will be putting your dog in and is more of a dog-to-dog thing. And there are levels of being "social."
Lisa's dogs are prime examples of 2 totally different personalities within the same breed.
Thalie is a therapy dog. Therapy dogs, by nature, have to be able to be social to at least a small degree. In Thalie's case, she can be social with people and is confident enough to deal with all of the stress and pressure that comes with being a therapy dog (it's hard and exhausting work) as well as ignore other dogs. Thalie's "sociability" with other dogs is "I'd rather not, please and thank you." Which is totally fine...because there is absolutely no reason that she should be forced to...

And then there is Sadie...Soup-Pot Sadie.... A bit insecure and because of that she will react in situations accordingly ("I'll get you before you get me!!").

2 dogs, both female, same breed, same owner - 2 totally different dogs.

[TexasDobe]

I said the thing about protect sports because I thought their was some miss commutation on what I said about them. I just trying to clear my statement up.
I am not talking about socialization in the same terms as you are talking about it. I am more talking about taking the puppy out to many different places when young and make them fun.

[Dutchringgirl]

That is just taking them out and making them fun. That is definatly something you want to do, let them go for car rides, hear sounds, see the world.

I dont understand though what you said about trying too much and getting nothing done?

[Stacy_R]

I am not talking about socialization in the same terms as you are talking about it. I am more talking about taking the puppy out to many different places when young and make them fun.

Okay. Then you are talking about something completely different...wrong terminology. Environmental exposure isn't socialization. ANY dog will have issues if not enough environmental exposure happens no matter of breed.

[Raven]

For some reason, I gleaned you were referring to some owners not spending enough time (knowledgeably) training a DS (with ALL that entails), thus enabling the dog to be 'social' enough to deal with a variety of circumstances. That, I agree with. The same is true for many owners, regardless of breed, as you know being in rescue.

At any rate, welcome. SO glad you are asking questions and reading threads in the forum and are exposing yourself to the DS world where you live as much as you can while continuing to look for more exposure of a deeper nature. Very wise. We've had a few members who believed they were ready, but found they weren't. I applaud your efforts.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

I think there's a misconception about the term socialization - connotation and meaning. With DS, it's best to understand EXACTLY what you mean when you say "socialization". Most of us here won't call it that because it connotes terms that don't mesh with how dogs are. However some on the forum use the term and mean specific, controlled exposures. Personally I prefer the term exposure versus socialization, but to each their own.

Environmental exposure is absolutely important for every and any dog, regardless of breed. Working through fear stages with environmental exposure is also necessary, although a bit more care must be taken into consideration with a DS. People socialization is less so "let everyone rush up to the cute puppy and pet it" and more controlled interactions with people. This is absolutely important - the dog must see people as neutral, they will never be labs and want to meet everyone, but a neutral reaction is wanted - and allowing people to rush up to the dog or pet it when it doesn't want it can cause issues, especially in certain lines. These are a protection breed genetically programmed to be weary of strangers, so imagine as a baby having something you're already not sure of rushing up to you and touching you when you don't want it. It can create aggression which most aren't sure of how to handle in a few month old pup. I can't tell you how often I heard "you're too young for that!" when my dude would charge people and bark threateningly at 3 months old.

As for the training comment, I'm a bit lost, but if you break it down to what you see on the threads it seems to be issues of consistency, using the right methodology, dog learning a behavior we didn't mean for it to and trying to correct it, and handler aggression due to various causes. Most of these stem for the DS' unique personalities, working dog genetics, and smarts.

And Lisa I think I spit out my drink when they told me that.

[Dutchringgirl]

I Bet you did Kira !!!!

[Mobil]

Females seem to deal with other females better then males with males from what I have seen. The older ones run things most of the time. Males seem to fight for pecking order.

My experience with 2 females has been the opposite. Bitch aggression is a terrible thing when it happens. I do think that one of each sex is less problematic than 2 of the same sex, but I may be biased after having had 2 females, then 2 males, and now a male and a female.

[Dutchringgirl]

I dont think I would ever have two males. I have two females and they are fine. There is a big age difference so I dont know if that makes a difference or they are also polar opposites. Thalie is in charge, she will let Sadie think she is but if Sadie gets too big for her britches she will let Sadie know.

[TexasDobe]

I am coming from a different breed but from what I have seen females fights are worse then males but less likely. It seems how some of the terms used in some of the different breeds are taken a lot different with different breeds. The Doberman for the most part has lost a lot of its working ability unless you go for that type of breeding. I am guessing that is the main reason they are more likely to use words that can be mistaken. I will try to be more clear on what I am saying from here on.
Training came from all the aggression post I see. I see it as people doing the wrong correction/reward at the wrong time.That also means they are really good for good handler timing. I am coming to the real true this breed is a lot less forgiving for handler errors then other breeds I have been around. The one thing that I do not have to worry about is others in the house causing bad behaviors. Do I see this at a problem for me? Not really but it is something that if problems do pop up I really need to look at and figure out why I am getting this reaction and what I need to change.

[Dutchringgirl]

Yes, this breed is NOT very forgiving of handler errors. This is still a working breed and has kept its working abilities. Thalie HATES it when I grab her scruff, even a little bit to get her out of the way, she will turn back on me, no teeth because she knows better, but she still gets mad at me. If you get a reaction from them then, yes, you have to look at what YOU did, not the dog.