Weight Gain?

[AFronhei]

We've had Havok for a month now and we've weighed him every week with the following results:

day 1: 71 lbs---all ribs clearly showing, sunken hollow behind last rib, hollow chest, back bone clearly showing, hips protruding, no muscle.
week 1: 72 lbs.
week 2: 67 lbs.
week 3: 71 lbs
week 4: 71 lbs.

He has been wormed and has no underlying health issues. We've been feeding him a mix of large breed puppy food, rice, egg, and broth. He was surviving on table scraps at his last home so the kibble is something he is not a fan of eating yet. Does anyone have any suggestions to help him gain weight the weight back or should I give it more time before I become worried? He does not look as bad as he did when we got him but he hasn't gained any weight on the scale so I'm not sure where the fill is coming from. This is my first malnourished dog so I have no idea how long it should take or if there is something I could do better. He is definitely at least 15 lbs under weight if not more. 15 lbs would still leave him very lean and that's not taking into account muscle mass. Should I exercise him a normal amount or less than a healthy dog? I was told to expect 1-2 lbs a week of weight gain and we haven't even seen that aside from the week he dropped and came back up. We were doing a lot of running and playing the week he dropped so I toned it back and he went back up to 71#s. I know a lot of you feed raw, is that something I should consider? I would like to feed all of my dogs raw but we live in a desert town and groceries are entirely too expensive for that here but I could manage it for Havok if it might help.

It's also entirely possible I'm freaking out over nothing. I admit that as well.

[Christie M]

I feed a combination of raw and kibble and have had great results with it.

When choosing kibble, I am sure you know you get what you pay for. But one thing I have noticed is that the working dogs that we raise, who are mostly kenneled, don't do well on a 30/20 blend. The high protein just makes them burn hot and they don't maintain weight well. I think they do much better on a 24/20. The lower protein with higher fat seems to help them maintain body weight.

There are many people on here who are well versed with feeding raw. I cheat. LOL. But my dogs seem to do just fine.

Another cool study that I love is this: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/va ... 11837.html

It shows that dogs, and not wolves, can digest and utilize carbs - possibly an evolutionary development of living with humans.

[AFronhei]

That's interesting! It does stand to reason that they would have evolved along with us. At the time we domesticated them we were sharing the same diet and we have evolved to eat grains and other foods we couldn't previously handle to include milk.

I (ignorantly) just assumed the higher protein would help him gain more as that seemed to be the general consensus. I may try the lower protein diet. I've been adding mix-ins (the broth was not my choice but he wouldn't touch the kibble without it) and he isn't too fond of rice so I will have to find something different. I fed him our left over vegetable soup the other day and he loved it, he also eats carrots and other veggies my other dogs wouldn't dare touch. I give him anything I think is safe from the leavings of my cooking in addition to his meals, we don't use additives or salt due to allergy restrictions so its all fresh.

I suppose I will try feeding him 80/20 ground beef unless anyone thinks that is a bad idea? Should I feed it raw or cooked and over his food? His stomach is pretty cast iron and he hasn't had loose stools yet, probably due to the nature of his diet before. I don't want to risk upsetting it though.

[Dutchringgirl]

Sadie was skin and bones when I got her. It took a good few months for her to not look so starved. I feed Beniful when I first got her, she did well, but then I learned about Raw and switched. She did well on raw. She is a long and lean dog so after a while I didnt worry too much.

[Christie M]

I suppose I will try feeding him 80/20 ground beef unless anyone thinks that is a bad idea? Should I feed it raw or cooked and over his food? His stomach is pretty cast iron and he hasn't had loose stools yet, probably due to the nature of his diet before. I don't want to risk upsetting it though.

If you cook it, it cooks off the fat. I feed my Frenchies a completely homemade diet that is ground beef base. I use the cheapest, highest fat content that I can find.

Many people feel it is bad to mix raw and kibble in the same meal. To be on the safe side, I would makeis ground beef a separate meal.

[Dutchringgirl]

Christie, do you give raw ground beef?

[Christie M]

Christie, do you give raw ground beef?

Yes. That is the primary diet for my Frenchies. I ran it through a friends DVM nutritionist program. I thaw it long enough to mix it and then refreeze. I also give Calcium supplement to accommodate for the lack of bone. Since Ramble started having seizures, that is all they eat. Also look up Satin Balls for weight gain. They are used by many.

[Dutchringgirl]

That is the only meat I have a hang up on feeding raw. I think its all of the years of getting beat in my head about how that ground meat MUST be cooked. I know I know, they eat deer poop. LOL

[AFronhei]

If you cook it, it cooks off the fat.

Could I not just pour in the drippings as well and thus give him the fat without having to deal with the raw meat? Or is it bad for them in that form? I have a hang up about not cooking ground beef as well. lol.

Many people feel it is bad to mix raw and kibble in the same meal. To be on the safe side, I would makeis ground beef a separate meal.

I've always been under the impression the mixing was because if you let it sit it will go bad. I will split them anyway just to be safe.

[AFronhei]

Also look up Satin Balls for weight gain. They are used by many.

I've found the recipe for the Satin Balls I had just heard mixed things about giving them to starved dogs as some people feel they are used to beef up your show dogs. I'm still iffy on them. I suppose there is nothing in them that would hurt him it just seems like a lot and I don't want him to gain so fast that it's unhealthy.

[alspyce]

That is the only meat I have a hang up on feeding raw. I think its all of the years of getting beat in my head about how that ground meat MUST be cooked. I know I know, they eat deer poop. LOL

Nothing wrong with ground beef (except the price now!), but I only feed it raw. If you cook it, you kill off the beneficial enzymes naturally found in the meat. Fried meats have been said to containe carcinogenic properties, which is a whole 'nuther topic.

If Havok was existing only on scraps from cooked human food, he may be lacking in digestive enzymes that he needs to get them most out of his diet. You could try some probiotics and/or unfiltered apple cider vinegar--I use bragg's.
I'm not a fan of "puppy formula" kibble, a good quality food labeled for "all life stages" would be my recommendation if you're going to feed kibble.

[Boogies]

I'm a little confused about why you want to put 15 pounds of fat on your dog. Fat dogs, like fat people, are not healthy. They will have more health problems, more injuries, higher vet bills, a shorter life, more heat stress and reduced working ability whether their job is jogging, obedience, herding or protection.

Most American pets are obese. Not just fat, obese. Fifteen pounds of fat on an animal the size of a DS is like thirty to forty pounds of fat on an adult human. Not healthy. Your vet will not tell you your dog is fat. I've worked for vets. Most don't have knowledge or don't share knowledge about true fitness. Doctors don't tell their patients to stop smoking or lose weight beyond a few pounds either. They don't like confrontation and people get really defensive about their fat pets.

How tall is your dog? My Malinois is 27 inches tall and is an okay weight at 70 pounds. He would carry less fat if he was working harder and stealing less food. He is a thief. He is currently at least 75 pounds and is considered thin by the folks at the dog park with their butter ball Labs. He is not thin but he is well muscled.

When looking at a healthy dog from above, you should see a narrow waist and the shape of their rib cage. From the side they should have a tucked up waist. Their backbone should not be hidden by fat. Ditto for their hip bones. seeing a few ribs is healthy. When they move, their back skin/fur should bounce straight up and down, not roll from side to side.

Unless your dog has orthopedic problems or injuries, he is capable, with proper conditioning, of running 50 to 100 miles a day. Day after day, if he's lean. The DS was developed along with all the other Northern European shepherd dogs to tend flocks and herds by trotting around them all day long to keep them contained in unfenced areas. It would be really hard to over exercise one.

Many pet owners say they want a little extra fat in case their dog gets sick and can't eat. It almost never happens and the extra fat will be much more harmful. Even a very lean working sled dog can go 7 to 10 days without food, if it has to.

Finally: excess fat,in people, works as an organ to increase inflammatory chemicals in the body, increasing auto immune diseases, cancer, arthritis...It may be the same for dogs.

In other words, your dog is probably just fine.

[Dutchringgirl]

Nothing wrong with ground beef (except the price now!), but I only feed it raw. If you cook it, you kill off the beneficial enzymes naturally found in the meat. Fried meats have been said to containe carcinogenic properties, which is a whole 'nuther topic.

I grew up kosher so the raw took a while anyway to deal with. I still dont have my meats and dairy in the same part of the refrigerator LOL

[Dutchringgirl]

I wouldnt worry too much either. Thalie is 27 inches and 55 lbs and in super shape. Sadie is 27 inches and 65 lbs. I do keep Sadie on the lean side because of her hips but I like my dogs leaner any way.

[Christie M]

"Boogies" - thank you for your contribution. Please take a moment and create a signature for yourself that includes your name via the User Control Panel so that we can always remember who you are

I agree that herders tend to be lean. However, lean and too thin is a fine line. For me, since we have so many that we are raising, they stimulate off of each other and are often in constant motion. For others, some are just hard keepers. I prefer to see a rib or two, but hip bones and spine stress me out. I want my dogs to have a little more mass than that - if for no other reason than to have some reserves.

[AFronhei]

I'm a little confused about why you want to put 15 pounds of fat on your dog. Fat dogs, like fat people, are not healthy. They will have more health problems, more injuries, higher vet bills, a shorter life, more heat stress and reduced working ability whether their job is jogging, obedience, herding or protection.

Most American pets are obese. Not just fat, obese. Fifteen pounds of fat on an animal the size of a DS is like thirty to forty pounds of fat on an adult human. Not healthy. Your vet will not tell you your dog is fat. I've worked for vets. Most don't have knowledge or don't share knowledge about true fitness. Doctors don't tell their patients to stop smoking or lose weight beyond a few pounds either. They don't like confrontation and people get really defensive about their fat pets.

How tall is your dog? My Malinois is 27 inches tall and is an okay weight at 70 pounds. He would carry less fat if he was working harder and stealing less food. He is a thief. He is currently at least 75 pounds and is considered thin by the folks at the dog park with their butter ball Labs. He is not thin but he is well muscled.

When looking at a healthy dog from above, you should see a narrow waist and the shape of their rib cage. From the side they should have a tucked up waist. Their backbone should not be hidden by fat. Ditto for their hip bones. seeing a few ribs is healthy. When they move, their back skin/fur should bounce straight up and down, not roll from side to side.

In other words, your dog is probably just fine.

I don't want 15 lbs of fat. I understand how lean a dog is supposed to be when healthy. He is not healthy. You can sharply see each rib. His hip and shoulder bones protrude and he has NO muscle mass. Everything I feed him is burned by an attempt to survive. He is a rescue. A very underfed rescue. I want him to gain muscle mass. He is in way "fine" at the weight he is. I am well aware that dogs are supposed to have tucked stomachs and a slim profile. You can count each of his individual vertebra without feeling.There is a 2-3 inch recess behind his last rib and his feet and legs lack all muscle tone. I don't want him to be fat I want him to be healthy. I understand that most people tend to think working dogs are underweight. I am not one of those people. I was told 25 lbs by the vet. Which would put him at 95 and I think that would be too much. I am sticking with the 10-15 lbs range because I want him to gain muscle without gaining fat. Currently he is lacking the ability to do that because everything he is fed is going to his survival. I asked about exercise because he is NOT a healthy dog. He was previously trapped in a 10x10 kennel ALL day EVERY day. Asking him to perform at healthy dog standards is about like expecting a random person who has never worked out to go out and run a marathon. He gets winded WALKING around our neighborhood. A game of fetch exhausts him after 5 minutes or so. We are slowly working on it.

[AFronhei]

He is also a 5 year old dog and should have filled out in the chest by now. He should not have a hollow chest. He is 27 inches but I can see ALL ribs, not just the last 2 and as I have stated he has no muscle anywhere. Once we get to the point where the outline of his backbone is visible but each bone is not countable from across the room and his hip and shoulder bones are visible but not sharp I will be content.

[AFronhei]

If Havok was existing only on scraps from cooked human food, he may be lacking in digestive enzymes that he needs to get them most out of his diet. You could try some probiotics and/or unfiltered apple cider vinegar--I use bragg's.

I think that is the problem because he doesn't seem to get anything out of his food. How much of the apple cider vinegar would you suggest? Do you think it would work best by itself or in addition to the probiotics?

[alspyce]

If Havok was existing only on scraps from cooked human food, he may be lacking in digestive enzymes that he needs to get them most out of his diet. You could try some probiotics and/or unfiltered apple cider vinegar--I use bragg's.

I think that is the problem because he doesn't seem to get anything out of his food. How much of the apple cider vinegar would you suggest? Do you think it would work best by itself or in addition to the probiotics?

I use both, every day. You can put a tablespoon of ACV in a small water bowl for him to drink.
I do homemade yogurt for my girls, or PB-8 capsules when I get lazy.

How many meals per day are you feeding? You might try dividing his food into 3 or 4 smaller meals, as apposed to 1 or 2 larger meal. I've had that work on "hard keepers". Also the satin balls that Christie suggested.

[alspyce]

Another thought----
Are his stools normal looking, and have you done more than 1 fecal check for parasites? If the stool is a bit sloppy, with no parasites, you might have an issue with digestion of fats.