Quick question for everyone

[gmbobby]

So I've been talking to a dutch shepherd breeder, and he said he has a 9 week old female with a short coat. But he said the color is Sable. Has anyone else ever heard of or seen a sable dutch shepherd? I can't find anything about it. Almost every page I find shows Sable GSD's. Not dutch shepherds. Anyone else have any experience with this?

[Nordis]

Hi Bobby,

Other people will be able to answer this much better than I can. All I can add is when I was asking about a solid black Dutch Shepherd I was told that kind of coat was indicative of inbreeding.

This isn't to say that I think this is the case with the puppy you're asking about. Likely you've seen the same things I have on the internet when looking about in your search. There are a few Malinois looking dogs that are labeled as Dutch Shepherds. Of course, when they say "aka Malinois" that just makes it even more confusing to me!

Which inevitably leads me back to the thought that, as I've been told, in the same litter of Belgian Sheepdog/Shepherds, one can get four different coat varieties which have four different names, Groenendael, Laekenois, Tervuren, and Malinois.

"Breeds versus varieties controversy

In Belgium (the country of origin) all four types are considered to be varieties of a single breed, differentiated by hair color and texture.[citation needed] In some non-FCI countries and other regions, they are considered separate breeds. For instance, the American Kennel Club (AKC) recognizes only the Groenendael under the name "Belgian Sheepdog",[2] but also recognizes the Tervuren and the Malinois as individual breeds (Belgian Tervuren and Belgian Malinois respectively). The Laekenois can be registered as part of the AKC Foundation Stock Service and should eventually be recognised fully by the AKC.[3] In years gone past, the Groenendael and Tervuren were one breed with coat variations until the Belgian Sheepdog Club of America decided to petition the AKC to separate the two.[4]

The Australian National Kennel Council and the New Zealand Kennel Club recognize all four as separate breeds. The Canadian Kennel Club, Kennel Union of South Africa, United Kennel Club and the Kennel Club (UK) follow the FCI classification scheme and recognize all four as varieties of the same breed." -from Wikipedia.

I guess this explains why after so many years I'm still confused about the whole thing. I've also had people tell me that the Dutch and the Belgian are the same breed, and both are basically the same as the German Shepherds, though obviously after all the, (how do I say it nicely?) selective breeding that's been done with the GS it's quite easy to see that this isn't true now though it may have been long ago. And of course there are people who will enthusiastically say just the opposite, that all of the breeds are separate.

I guess what is most comfortable for me is if I can breed two dogs of the same breed and get a variety of coats then all the offspring are still types of that breed. I just hope our Dutch Shepherds won't have to eventually wind up experiencing a fate similar to the German Shepherds.

Perhaps further back along the line this sable female has some Malinois cross breeding? If that's the case I would think she's more likely to not have genetic problems, as mixed dogs are overall much less likely to have genetic health issues.

Whatever you find out, good luck with what I presume will be you finding your new fur friend!

[Karin]

The way I think of this simply (and I hope correctly but I'm sort of new with this breed) is that there are two lines of DS, the FCI and the KNPV. The KNPV breed for police/military dog qualities and they regularly interbreed malinois (belgium shep) with DS. Many people out there consider the Malinois and DS to be the same dog because of this… just different coat colors. The FCI line is supposed to be pure DS. However after WWII there are malinois in the FCI lines as well (because at that time there were so few DS) and some people say because of faking papers that there may be more recent malinois in some FCI lines as well. The way I understand it is that in the US there are more KNPV lines than FCI lines.

So to me… and I hope if I'm wrong someone corrects…a true sable coat would indicate recent malinois interbreeding into the line. Now they could mean something different in "sable". And there are always crappy breeders out there that will say anything to sell a dog and it could be something entirely different. Can you get a picture?

[Karin]

This is the history printed in several places that I refer to and discussions with the breeder of my pup. While this is a kennel, I am not promoting the kennel as I know nothing about it but this is the history I referred to.
http://www.sevenpineskennel.com/dutch_s ... istory.htm

[Raven]

Seven Pines Kennel you referenced is Judith's kennel...so anything on her site is reliable.

(Anyone know what's happened to her?)

I don't know what recent information is on Northwoods K-9 site, but that's Christie's and also reliable.

(Anyone know what's happened to her?)

[Sugars Mom]

I think a bermuda triangle type occurrance happened...Leigh and Marjolien have also dissappeard...

[gmbobby]

.....And there are always crappy breeders out there that will say anything to sell a dog and it could be something entirely different. Can you get a picture?

I should be getting a picture of the puppy either today or tomorrow. When I do I'll be sure to post it on here for ever to look at.

And here is a link to the breeder's site, http://www.vonfalconer.com/
I'm not sure if anyone has ever heard of them?

And this is the idea behind getting this puppy. My mother used to breed GSD's back in the early 80's until the late 90's I think. So after doing some research, I came across the DSD. I want to breed, and certify therapy and service dogs. And from everything I've read, these seem like they would be great dogs to do this with. The only problem is, I'm really OCD about keeping the dogs lines as pure as possible. Which to me is the responsible thing to do. I'm not going to end up being a breeder who has litters and "claims" they are purebred. So I don't want to start off with a female that is technically a mix. Unless that's usual for DSD breeds? Thanks for the help. I figured going to a forum where people know about these things would be the best option to ask for opinions or thoughts.

[gmbobby]

So here's a quick update. I just got off the phone with the breeder, who said the sire was a golden brindle, and the mother was black. He said both parents are DSD. He said he doesn't breed, compete, etc. any on with Belgian Malinois breed. And he said he'd be willing to send any pedigree or anything else I might need.

[LyonsFamily]

If he can send the pedigree, you can post it on here, and we might be able to help you out with the lines and such. I'd question whether it was a true black or a very dark brindle. I don't know of any all black dutch shepherds, and it's not in the standard. There are all black mals that could be hiding the fawn/sable color of a regular mal. I know fawn can show up, but there are malinois in the pedigree, most DS in the states have mals mixed in.

[Travis]

So after doing some research, I came across the DSD. I want to breed, and certify therapy and service dogs. And from everything I've read, these seem like they would be great dogs to do this with. The only problem is, I'm really OCD about keeping the dogs lines as pure as possible.

This might come off a bit blunt so I apologize in advance. But I always worry when someone combines questions of not knowing where to buy their first DS with wanting to start breeding and "certifying" service dogs.

Being "OCD about keeping pure lines" might not mean the same thing to us both. But just having a "purebred" dog is not scratching the surface of in terms of what you want in terms of lines in my (non-breeding) opinion. For example, some of the most highly trained service animals there are would be the guide dogs for the blind. Typically they do NOT want highly prey motivated dogs for these jobs. Can you imagine the task of training a dog that is genetically hardwired to want to chase anything that moves at top speed to sedately ignore everything and lead its handler? Whether or not it could be done isn't nearly as relevant as whether it is the best choice of "lines" for the task.

If you truly want to breed and train therapy and service dogs, look for a pup with parents that are currently doing that work at a high level and have also come from lines that also perform the same work. Personally, if I wanted to build a kennel on foundation dogs I would look to start with the "best platform" I could find. And in that case it would mean starting with stock that came from generations of dogs performing the exact work I was looking to breed with an eye to improving.

"Therapy dogs" can also be very different from "service dogs" in terms of the demands placed on what would classically be a "true" service dog that is actually working in harness for the majority of the day. I would highly suggest contacting one of the known breeders on here for their input and asking them some question about how much DS experience they would recommend before jumping into breeding and charging people for professionally training their DS service dogs.

Hope I'm reading your post right and I apologize if my word choice lacks tact or if I'm reading too much into the thread.

[gmbobby]

I've seen a couple service and therapy dogs in Vancouver, WA that were DS. At the time I didn't know the breed because I'd never seen them before. And I'm not planning on training seeing eye dogs lol. They will be for people who are deaf or hard of hearing, veterans with PTSD, etc. Either way I have a few years to decide exactly what I'm doing. It's not like I plan on having a litter in 6 months.

[gmbobby]

And of course that's if I don't end up in agility or something along those lines. Like I said, nothing is set in stone. Now, if this breeder I'm talking to doesn't end up how I like, can anyone recommend a good one I can speak with?

[Travis]

Either way I have a few years to decide exactly what I'm doing. It's not like I plan on having a litter in 6 months.

Not really. If this is this pup you plan on breeding, then you need to know before you buy it if it even has potential to carry the genetics to create the lines you plan on breeding. Not just as an individual for you but in terms of passing that to its own offspring. Even if you don't breed her for 4-5 years, you'll be acquiring her shortly if I'm reading correctly.

Are the Von Falconer parent dogs you are purchasing from hip certified (PennHip or OFA) and are the parents currently working as service animals or have their previous litters produced service animals?

If we run a low estimate of the numbers, and say that the average breeding female has two litters of 5 puppies in her lifetime, that would put the Dutch Shepherd breed population at roughly stable numbers if only one female off-spring from both of her litters were bred. Is this that one female?

What I'm driving at is that if you plan on breeding you need to be incredibly choosy about picking your breeding stock. To have a well researched, well thought out plan for each individual you add to your bloodline. If you plan on breeding this pup (even in a few years) you should have considered dozens of litters and be familiar with bloodline characteristics within the specific kennels of DS lines as this will be the foundation female that you are staking your kennel name and reputation upon.

IMO, this is more what being OCD about bloodlines is about rather than just being a "pure" DS with "papers" or registration.

What does Von Falconer say their intent was for this litter in particular and in what venue do they currently train and work the parents?

*edit* Looks like I've fallen a post or so behind while I typed the above. Apologies if my post is not relevant to your alternate goals.

[gmbobby]

Anyone ever heard of Cher Car Kennels in Michigan? Just looking for opinions and different options for breeders.

[johninny]

i have a CherCar puppy [6 1/2 months old - middle pup in the current masthead photo]. he was chosen by the breeder to best fulfill an unusual request on my part as i hope he will be a service dog for me as an autistic. so what i was looking for is not what any of her other clients would ever request [ by her own recognition]. she had 2 pups that she thought MIGHT work and gave me her best shot; so far he shows great promise.
i had such a working DS for 12 1/2 years [ contrary to certain opinion recently offered up on this forum about pets vs working dogs ] and after his death have found it very difficult to locate the same abilities. as a result, i have 2 other, somewhat older DS pups who are really wonderful, but who could never perform the functions that are so important to me. i do not think any amount of training would compensate for them simply not having the very specific temperament that is required for the job i need done.
my needs of such a dog would not be like those of most any other service dog, so do not take anything i say as a recommendation of any CherCar dogs for your purposes. i think Travis had very valid points presented in excellent fashion. any success you might have in creating service dogs out of DSs [ a tough order ] would be initially dependent on starting with the right dogs. the best breeders are very observant of and honest about their individual dogs' potential and possibilities. among others, but especially for pursuit of your ideas, i would include Christie Meyer of Northwoods and Cheryl of CherCar in the group of best breeders to talk to and to work with in choosing a dog if that seems feasible after further investigation. but, as Travis said, i think you need to know exactly what you intend to do.

[asheleylane]

Hello Bobby,
As a veterinarian and breeder of (only) Dutch Shepherds for 13 + years, I think there is far too much information to cover in an email post regarding the breed and selection for breeding working or service dogs! There is sound advice posted, to ask for 1. PROOF of joint screenings (don't just take someone's word for it!) 2. ask what the traits are of the parents, why those particular dogs were chosen to breed and what traits are hoped for in in the offspring. 3. ask about accomplishments of the parents or their previous offspring.
If a priority for you is keeping the breed 'pure' (which has MANY different meanings to different people), then insist on finding a dog with registration, either with UKC or with an FCI recognized registry (there are many). Also, since the breed standard unequivocally states that a DS is brindle, then a fawn or sable dog does not fit the breed standard, thus to some people it is not a DS. That is not to say that two purebred, registered, brindle dogs cannot produce a fawn puppy - it does happen. Just from what you have stated it seems counter intuitive to choose a dog that doesn't meet the breed standard.
Asheley Winters

[johninny]

if i may point out the obvious for Bobby's benefit, Ashley Winters and her dogs are as highly regarded in the DS world as it gets. my knowledge of DS breeding is new/recent so i only mentioned the 2 whose range of dogs and practices i know a slight bit about, but, when i needed my very specific dog, very knowledgeable people pointed me toward 3 people - Ashley, Christie, and Cheryl - who i think all share great respect for each other.

[LyonsFamily]

If you're really OCD about keeping your lines "purebred" then the DS, at least the shorthairs, might make your job pretty difficult. You are aware that the studbooks in some European countries are still open, right? Even FCI dogs can/will have malinois in their lines. If you want as "purebred" as possible, rather than looking at the individual dogs and what they are qualified for, look at the longhaired Dutch Shepherds as most of those breeders will not breed out to an unregistered working dog. Your best bet then would be to find the representative for the new AKC breed club and inquire about what dogs are eligible for FSS. Personally, I'd choose a dog with malinois in their pedigree that fits the job description over a dog that simply has "purebred" status.

Cher Car has purebred dogs in the sense that UKC only requires 3 generation purebreds for single registration. Check out their website and the section that says "Our dogs earn their stripes." UKC denotes 7 generations of UKC registered purebred as purple ribbon. I'm not sure Cher Car has any purple ribbon dogs yet. That's not to say they don't produce great dogs and I think Cheryl breeds for a more family temperament that would be more suitable for therapy/service work compared to some serious working lines. There are a few members on this forum that have dogs from Cheryl and are very happy. I've met dozens at dog shows and don't have anything bad to say about any of their dogs. Cheryl was very nice when I met her at the UKC Dutch Shepherd specialty and Odin seemed to like her which is saying a lot.

There are a few FCI breeders in the states and that would be about as pure as you can get for shorthairs. Asheley Winters has FCI dogs, I believe, and Les Flores does as well.

If your plan is to be strict on purebred for your own future breeding kennel, form a definition of how many generations you want to go back of Dutch Shepherd to qualify as purebred, what registries, if any, you want them recorded with, and inquire with breeders to find a pedigree with all brindle dogs for those generations. "Purebred" is an arbitrary idea that has different meanings to everyone.

As for the therapy and service dog "certification" how involved are you with that now? Do you have the experience training dogs for these types of tasks? Do you know which organization you want to become an instructor for for therapy work. There are a few and most are exclusive and require an application and years of documented experience. Certification for service dogs is pretty much a joke and a lot of false advertising. There's no requirement for certification. The ADA protects service dogs and individual states can only make rules regarding service dogs in training.

[gmbobby]

From what I have gathered online looking at the Dutch Shepherd, there seems to be quite a few cases where Malinois has been mixed in with the DS line. So I understand that getting a PURE DS is minimal unless I go through someone like Les Flores like you were saying. I simply meant that in the past 5 generations or so longer, they haven't bred a DS to a Malinois. Or a breeder that does that on a consistent basis. Does that make sense? And there's a lot of dog breeders of every type that have done cross breeding. So I'm not completely set on having an FCI DSD. As I know in the US, there are very few breeders who do that. What I mean is, I don't want to go to a breeder who has dutch shepherds, and simply breeds them. I want to go to a breeder who's lines are accomplished. Whether that breeder participates in Agility, Schutzhund, k-9, etc. As far as schooling, there is the Pro Train Institute here in San Diego. They have a 2 year program where you learn and train dogs. You can specialize in a specific area you are interested in. They do therapy, protection, k-9, tracking, etc. I have spoken with a few of the K-9 San Diego police officers I have come across, and several members of their department have trained there and they all had nothing but good things to say about it. And like I said previously, Therapy/Service dogs are just a possibility right now. I don't even have a puppy yet. So I'm still continuing to research and look in to things before I make my final decision. Agility and Schutzhund are also very intriguing to me, and in that case, I know this breed would be excellent for that.

Now, as for the color/pattern question I had earlier, I found a site that clearly stated DSD's can also be in rare cases found with a short coat in a fawn, mahogany, or black in color. But it should be considered a fault and noted in the pedigree.

This site states "Brindle preferred, but others accepted." http://www.vandaliakennel.com/whatisadutchshepherd.htm

[Christie M]

I think the original poster has left, but I will answer briefly if I can

First, thank you for the kind words everyone who mentioned my breedings. That means a lot to me!!

Generally, all of the herding type breeds were about the same and crossed back and forth a ton. Over a hundred years ago, each regional "breed club" created their "breed standard" and tried to breed towards that type - basically what we know as the German Shepherd, Dutch Shepherd and Belgian Shepherds. Each country's breed club closed their stud books at different times. For Dutch Shepherds, that was in the 1970s. Up until then, if the dog was evaluated by more than one judge that it met the breed standard, then it was accepted into the stud book. Meeting the breed standard is simply an evaluation based on physical appearance - which a fawn/brindle breeding could produce. So the FCI dogs coming from the closed stud books have known pure generations back to the 70s - not before.

EXCEPT - there was also the careful introduction of a few breedings to increase genetic population. This was done with dogs that were not 100% FCI. Also, it is known that some overseas FCI breeders misrepresented their papers to make registered working dogs. Lastly, every country has a different standard for getting a dog into their national breed club, and therefore can become FCI registered. There are still some countries that are more or less lax about accepting Dutch Shepherds - so then by default they have FCI registrations.

So where does that leave us? LOL. Heck if I know. Except to say that every Dutch Shepherd has some outcrossed breedings in there - officially or not. And the only purity standard we could even shoot for only goes back about 40 years.

The statements about KNPV vs FCI are true enough. Good dogs are bred based on work, not physical characteristics. However, there are plenty of breeders with KNPV stock who are working to stay true to a brindle standanrd.

Genetically, the K lokus determines fawn, brindle or black (in Dutch and mals anyway). If the dog has any brindle at all, it is considered brindle - even though people use descriptive terms like "black brindle" or "reverse brindle." Those are just generic terms to describe what the dog looks like. Black is most dominant and represented by Kb, brindle is next dominant and is represented by Kbr, and fawn (yellow) is least dominant and represented by Ky.

A black dog could be Kb/Kb, Kb/Kbr, or Kb/Ky. If it carries black at all, it will be black in color but could carry brindle or fawn.

A brindle dog could be Kbr/Kbr or Kbr/Ky. So brindle dogs can carry fawn - this is common because it is easily masked for generations. The most recent litter of FCI registered long-haired dogs in this country had a fawn. So they still would be FCI registered Dutch Shepherd. It just is considered a fault and not a breedable dog. UKC has a different standard as they say brindle is the ONLY acceptable color, but UKC should really confer to FCI standard....and they probably will.

Finally, a fawn can only be Ky/Ky and therefor can never through anything but fawn.

Sable is a separate term that refers to patterning over the sable base coat. It effects what you see off of the K locus, but does not change the genetic base color.

So in this particular situation - if one parent was a solid black dog, then it would have had obvious outside influence in the lines because it can not carry black without expressing it. But the presence of a fawn/sable puppy is not evidence that it is not a "pure bred" because that color can be masked. If both parents are truly brindle, then the pedigrees deserve further looking into.

Does that make any sense?? LOL.

Also please note that many breeders post and crosspost whatever they find online about the breed. However, there are only acceptable breed standards created by the kennel clubs. For us, that is basically NCHA, FCI, UKC or most recently AKC. They are all basically the same, with only a few differences.