Fear question - Dog attack

[MadMedic35]

Last night my wife was out for the evening walk with Gustav. She is the sole walker since I am in a leg cast. She was near a home where 2 boxer mixes had chased her a few days prior. She felt they were strays and did carry a firearm or other means of protection - she is much more naive than I am. Anyway, she approached the home talking to her father when the 2 dogs and a third, St Bernard, attacked. Young Gustav tried to protect her but was no match. She instinctively fell and covered Gustav while the attack continued. She was bitten on the wrist and back of her head. Gustav had punctures to both the medial and lateral aspect of his left rear leg as well as more superficial wounds to his right rear. All were taken to appropriate medical faculties and treated and released. Gustav is resting thanks to morphine and the wife is a little beat up but know worse for wear.

We noticed the Police and an Animal Control officer was dispatched. The dogs are not stray and are up to date on shots. They were placed on a 10 day home quarantine but not impounded. I am blown away by this. Other neighbors indicated this wasn't the first time they had acted aggressively.

My wife's and my largest concern is our dogs psyche. He is changed after this. He seems much more leery in general. On his morning walk my wife said he seemed very alert and on guard. We are beginning his obedience training this Friday and are nervous if this attack will create unseen issues that will make training more difficult. Then will this be more expensive or limit his ability in the future? Right now we are very uncertain as to how to progress both with the dog and with legal aspects of this. I guess I am looking for any canine related advice from anyone who had been in a situation like this before.

[Dutchringgirl]

That is sooooooooo irresponsible of those dog owners !!! I am so sorry this happened. I would stay in touch with the police and ask them what can be done, maybe they can ticked the dog owners.

You asked about if it will limit his ability, did you have plans for him to do any work, or just in general?

First, I would advise your wife to walk elsewhere, if she has to drive down the street to walk somewhere else, I would in no way want to take another chance, if he is leery now, if this happens again,then he will defiantly be affected deeper.

I would keep his training slow for now, the obedience work should not be affected as it is just sit, stay type of things. What else are you training for?

If it is a class training then I would tell the trainer and be careful when you bring him into class. Take it very slow. Do not listen to any of the other owners if they say there dog is fine. Listen to your own gut and watch Gustav carefully for how he reacts. Also be very careful of how you are reacting in class, he will feed off of you. If he seems a bit nervous, keep him on the other side of the class and do not walk near the others until you can see how they are.

I would not take any chances right now until he regains some confidence

[karenz]

I'm sorry but I have been lucky to never have a dog that went through this. I always carry pepper spray and a gun when me and Xander walk anywhere. I hate to think of having to shoot another dog but I would not hesitate to protect my Xander.

I just read an article in our local news this morning where a 71 year old woman was walking her dog and attacked by 3 pits that got out of their yard. Her dog tried to fight them off of her. He had to be euthanized. It is so sad. The owner was charged with letting his dogs run loose.

I don't feel qualified to offer any suggestions. I'm sure it has effected him but I'm sure with the right advice you will be able to work through it. I hope someone here chimes in soon with some help.

I'm glad to hear the wife and Gustav are doing well and I'm glad it wasn't worse than it was.

[MadMedic35]

Lisa: We have plans to get into either PSA or Schutzhund. His training is resident training at Tarheel Canine. I am worried about him possibly becoming fear aggressive or something else.

Karen: I think we live very close to each other. I am in Moore County and read the same story on WRAL this morning. I am still in disbelief. She did change her route this morning.

It's one of those things that kind of rocks you to the core. Sense of safety is gone.

[LyonsFamily]

Research the dog bite laws in your county and push for action if you want something done. At the minimum, there should be a mandatory 6' fence installed and they should be put on probation since they had multiple bites to a human and a dog. The 10 day quarantine is mandatory, no matter what. Most laws allow the dogs to stay at home if they're up to date on shots, but that doesn't mean action won't happen after the quarantine is over. That's just to check for signs of rabies.

If they've acted aggressively before, that usually doesn't matter, but most towns have a 2 bite law and if the dogs have bitten before, they will need to have a hearing. Our town just had 2 cane corsos attack and kill a jogger and they had previous bites on file, but nobody looked into it until it was too late.

As far as training, triple check to make sure all dogs you'll be working with and around for a while are very dog social. You don't need a leash reactive dog around to enforce his fears. Set him up for success with only safe dogs. I'd start from the beginning with proper introductions to controlled people and dogs, without contact or danger, just like you did when he was a puppy. Condition him to work without stress indicators or reactions 10-20 feet away before pushing for anything nearby. I'd also give your trainers a ring and let them know about the incident and your concerns. They may want to postpone training while he's healing because pain can make behavior worse.

[johninny]

''rocks you to the core''/''sense of safety is gone.''
that is the really tragic part as you have intimated. i am shaken just reading this.
Dan, i am so sorry that your brave wife and sweet Gustav [ and you! ] have endured such a terrible thing.

others are more capable of addressing the risk to Gustav's psyche and training, but nice to know that you have searched out such good training for him. hopefully their experience can help address any issues. in the end, each dog reacts according to his own temperament

being the MadMedic, you probably paid close attention to what antibiotics were given, but having gotten a very severe bite on a dog walk [ though the attack itself was thankfully no where near the level of your experience ], i am painfully aware that not all doctors know how to deal with dog bites, appallingly including what antibiotics [i.e., not Cipro] are needed to address the specific bacterial risks of a deep bite. thought it was worth mentioning for everyone since providers of medical care do not always have all the basic knowledge we assume they do.

[Dutchringgirl]

along with what John said, I also first thought of the shots, what could have been contracted and any medicine. If they are on any antibiotics, amp up the probiotics.

Since you are doing PSA and SHutz, I would defiantly talk to the trainer, set up a plan and stay away from other dogs until you really know them.

I did Ring Sport for years and saw many many dogs ruined by one stupid mistake. Some took very long to come back, some didnt. These guys are super strong but soooo very sensitive that one false move is the difference between a confident dog and one who wants to go home.

Have you gone beyond basic OB yet? Or is the training just going to start on Friday?

The main thing is to go really slow, read G very carefully and you must be his rock, he will look to you for support alot more now. Take it step by step and dont rush, and listen to your gut, if you feel the trainer is rushing and you see G not as confident as you feel he should be, back it down. You be in charge of how the training goes.

[MadMedic35]

Stephanie and Lisa: Thanks for the great advice. That is kind of what I was looking for.

John: I have to cede to my wife; she is an RVT. Gus was given Covenia for antibiotics and tramadol for any pain. He seems to be ambivalent towards the pain. The wounds are generally what I would call minor physically.

Thanks everyone for the great advice and responses. This site has become a great sounding board for us.

[Dutchringgirl]

Glad we could be of service. Keep us posted on how G and your wife are and how the training goes.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

First off let me say I am so sorry about what happened! It is simply terrifying when faced with such a situation. I hope everyone has a speedy and complication free recovery.

Everyone has given such excellent advice; I will only supplement it with my own experience. How old is Gustav now? Having had something similar happen (only with guys) when my guy was young, I can attest that how it affects Gustav will show up in his training but nothing is unfixable. With a lot of time, patience, and understanding, you can work through any fear aggression that might show up. I can walk H through a crowd without worry he will attack random men - however, I am certainly not blind that if stressed he could so I am a bit more attentive than most, but it's also not a giant fear anymore.

First things I would do is as he's healing build confidence. The one thing I saw a huge improvement in aggressiveness with my guy was when I focused a lot on building confidence. Tricks, obedience, house manners, any thing and everything was an opportunity to help build his shaken confidence from his encounter with the guy. It was treat and praise heaven when he did something right and if he didn't the most he even got was a stern "no".

I would also, once he was up and running, see how it affected him. Stephanie is absolutely correct to control the environment and control the types of dogs Gustav interacts with until you know he's okay. I would go even farther to mention if you have a friend with a social but preferably aloof dog, you can test his threshold. Sometimes a super social "I'm so happy to meet you OMG lemme drag my owner over" can be just as intimidating as an aggressive dog. I really think part of the reason fear aggression can have such strong and generalized associations is how you phrased it: "rocks you to your core". Everything Gustav knows about meeting other dogs and seeing other dogs has been rocked. You have to teach him how to not only overcome his fear but also how to recognize that not all dogs are dangers. Working with an aloof dog I think is almost better - the dog isn't really reacting to Gustav and Gustav has a chance to see neutral without any additional stimuli besides just the dog existing. However, a super social and calm dog is also great. As long as the dog is social and not energetic towards other dogs I would say is great (and under control). So I would start to see where his threshold lies with just a dog sitting there, and working on the "where is" game. I used to play it with H and it's a great technique others have mentioned throughout the forum. Starting at a far enough distance (if you know the distance where he may react, work far enough from that distance you can work up to it and bypass it), Gustav sees a dog and immediately he gets a treat. If he can look at the dog without reacting and without needing a treat, you move forward a few feet. Look at the dog, treat, rinse, repeat. When you see him start to react, back off a few feet and do it again. Short sessions are best. You can work up to the other dog walking, a more social enthusiastic dog, Gustav walking past the dog, etc. I used to do marker training with H this way: "where is the dog? Do you see the dog?" he looked and the second he did "YES" (or marker word) and treat. Soon I could have H point out the dogs before I saw them.

Another good one that Lisa recommended is the look command. Start building on it and get it rock steady. You can also practice if a dog approaches Gustav looks at you until the dog passes. But I would do this after desensitizing him to dogs in general.

When you wife is walking him, I would say the biggest thing is for her to mind herself. These guys really do pick up on tiny things. There's a big difference, for example, if I hear a jogger approaching and I grab H's leash to restrict how much lead he has, versus me calmly reach over and gently holding it. She must remind calm and assured on walks, and watch how she handles the leash, from tightening it in her hand to stiffening up. I've been there and I know you do things without realizing it, so tuning into her and Gustav while walking is utmost important.

As for the impact on PSA or Schutzhund, it shouldn't be much hypothetically. This is just another obstacle in focus exercises to work on and overcome. H can prance around the field with the judge shadowing us at 10 feet without losing focus. In PSA Gustav will have to tune out decoys trying their hardest to get his attention.

Also, as a personal note, during the time you're gauging and possibly working with him on any possible fear aggression, be mindful on how much you reward him. Obviously there will be a lot of it to prevent stress and rebuilding confidence, but at a certain point down the road (way down there) he may start to use it to his advantage. I accidentally taught H growling at people for more treats was acceptable in recovering his guy phobia. Really keep a dialogue of what you're doing and how to adjust as you do it to prevent any type of bad habits popping up.

As long as you keep control of the environments and talk with the trainers and see what they're thinking and what's best for Gustav, and you feel good about how he's doing, things will work out. Trust your gut. We're here if you need any advice - there's a lot of good stuff and what worked for H may not work for Gustav. Tarheel is also an excellent resource.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

As a PS - I would also wonder how Gustav does with people over him/being in a confined space. I know in PSA decoys will sometimes "hunch" over and crowd a dog to see if they can scare them off the bite. In light of what happened I would also make sure that along with dogs, once he's recovered if you see any hesitation or fear in a situation where something is over him in an general proximity that your wife was. Not saying she could have possibly caused any fear or anything, just the general anxiety and fear of the situation could have hyper charged the memory so any similar component (the area, the dogs, something being over him, etc) of it would possibly create fear/hesitation/dislike/aggression. H once had a bad experience with a boxer and now if I saw a sea of politely sitting calm dogs and pick one he'd likely freak out on, it would be a boxer.

[MadMedic35]

Kira: Thanks for the advice. You guys have much more experience than us and we appreciate the willingness to share.

Last night The wife took Gustav on his full walk to include passing the house where the attack occurred. I positioned myself in a car ready to intercept if anything happened. It was remarkably uneventful. The Mrs. Said Gustav acted normal until he saw one of them men who helped end the attack. She said he began to bark and pull away from him. She asked him to stay at a distance and he did. He understood what was going on. She calmed Gustav and continued. He did my react at the house where the attack took place. He is at work with her today. One day at a time.

[Dutchringgirl]

Ring decoys hunch over the dog as well. Have you started any bite work? I would not do decoy work until you get a handle on this. If you do, tell the decoy to take it slow. Does PSA use sticks or anything? Ring uses Bamboo sticks that make a ton of noise.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

PSA does use bamboo sticks. And bottle curtains. And streamers. And bottle of rocks. And bags. Lisa do FR decoys agitate the dogs vocally? On the bite do they yell or make noise besides the stick? In PSA decoys are usually heavy on the vocal agitation and "menacing" AKA distraction. They also use guns during OB - I think FR has an exercise with gun fire too? No idea on Sch besides they're getting away from bamboo sticks to I think padded sticks I've heard.

[MadMedic35]

No bite work at all yet and none until we get better at basic obedience. It's us not him that need better training.

[HeatherH]

Wow I don't know who I'm scared and worried for more your wife or the dog.

When I was younger I was attached by a group of dogs on my paper route. I was horrified of dogs, but I got over because when I was in college I bought a Rhodesian for at least the look of protection. I've been getting dogs ever since.

My dal was attacked by an idiot superintendent’s pit-bull that he thought was funny. Poor Yateem didn't even see it coming. He was off his leash in front of the building (he won't have hurt a fly the kids loved him. Who wouldn't 101 just came out). The Superintendent thought if you can let your dog so could he. First thing it did was jump on my dog and tor a chunk out of this shoulder. The superintendent lost his job paid or my dog’s entire medical expensive and was charged. He just laughed (The superintendent).

Yateem got better and over time understood that it was that dog and not every dog. I still took him for walks and started slowly introducing him back to others dogs and the dog park. He was ok after a while.

[Dutchringgirl]

PSA does use bamboo sticks. And bottle curtains. And streamers. And bottle of rocks. And bags. Lisa do FR decoys agitate the dogs vocally? On the bite do they yell or make noise besides the stick? In PSA decoys are usually heavy on the vocal agitation and "menacing" AKA distraction. They also use guns during OB - I think FR has an exercise with gun fire too? No idea on Sch besides they're getting away from bamboo sticks to I think padded sticks I've heard.

Yes, the decoys can vocalize and we do have guns for a few exercises. When we train we would use anything we can find to make noise, put in the way, jump over , around etc. With the sticks they are supposed to just brush the dog with it. But there have been times where...........well...........lets just say ...........

[Dutchringgirl]

No bite work at all yet and none until we get better at basic obedience. It's us not him that need better training.

you can start bit work when ever, the dog is in a harness on a long line and its all fun, just the decoy holding a tug and then the dog bites the tug and wins.

Its working around other dogs that needs the slow work. Once we did bite work, all other dogs were put up in a crate so it was only one dog at a time. it was OB that we had multiple on the field.

[Mark77]

Same thing happened here, two dogs escaped their yard, and went after my wife while she was walking Asia. Asia stood her ground and when the dogs went to sniff Asia, Asia just went full on attack mode, tore the hell out of one of the dogs and then went after the other. Both dogs were larger than her but Asia is a wild card. She's sweet as can be but easily the toughest dog I own and can turn aggression up several notches to a level that is a little scary. Luckily the owners got their dogs inside and Asia didn't get bit. I told my wife to get a concealed carry permit after that. To many dogs in the neighborhood and not enough responsible owners.

M

[Dutchringgirl]

before a gun, I would try something else, pepper spray or something.