herding?

[cordeliandemon]

ive seen people mention their dogs herding instincts on here and around the web, mainly people who have just gotten their first dutch shepherd recently and are in the honeymoon stage still learning the ins and outs of the breed.
do your dogs try to herd things? demon certainly dosnt

maybe some do and it could be to do with different lines of DS, possibly show lines being bred for gentler work to display workability in their stock?
there are only working line DS dogs in ireland and few at that. id have thought most or any herding would be bred out of them by now as the breed has long ago evolved to fit its new line of work mostly in the police, service and protection industry?

i know theyre known as dutch "herders" to some from the dutch translation, but mostly commonly dutch shepherds.
maybe im way off on this but i was under the impression that "shepherds" and "sheepdogs" had two very different yet sometimes overlapping roles?
for example collies are sheepdogs, they herd, organise and corral sheep with the farmers direction so they can be shorn ect.
whereas shepherds are larger, sturdier dogs that could be left out unsupervised in the fields where their main objective is to protect their flock from predators and poachers, while keeping the livestock in one general territory. (and from there comes the protection instinct DS are known for)

am i wrong on this? DS have extremely prey drive for working but for the majority i just dont see them being suited to the job of what i would consider a sheepdog and displaying those traits (rounding up children and other pets, heel nipping ect)
do any of your dogs do things like this or do you think atleast some of it is people confusing shepherd with sheepdog?


i hope this is making sense as im extremely tired and have to check on koda again in a minute, its just been on my mind lately.

[johninny]

oh, they definitely herd.
one of mine has herding instinct that is way too strong for my liking - or the liking of his companions.
but you said it yourself: one DS role was to protect livestock AND keep it in one area, which requires herding skills - so no one wanders off and gets killed. i have had several that could hardly help themselves from nipping any being that was moving too fast.

[cordeliandemon]

are you sure that can definitely be put down to herding though and not just normal dog behavior?
if koda was any kind of shepherd or sheepdog id say shes got a huge drive for herding from what i know of her, but because shes a malamute if i was asked id say its prey drive and an obsession with keeping a "pack" (if anyone wanders off she FREAKS out and tries to keep everyone in a little group when on walks, yet shes on the opposite end of the spectrum to a collie)
shes not aggressive twards people but if a jogger or large animal/dog runs past and shes not on the lead she gives chase nipping at the base of their heels. if she was another breed that would immediately be put down as herding, but shes made for very different purposes.

i just wonder if its a case of selective observation bias, where people *expect* to see such behaviors so if they see something resembling it thats immediately the conclusion they come to, even if its something that could be observed in non herding breeds with different explanations?


i dont mean to sound offensive in any way, just typing my thoughts

[cordeliandemon]

another thing if koda wasnt a malamute,
when shes playing with demon or hunting she freezes, gets down low, head level with shoulders, and does a very even and level creep forward with intense eye contact before pouncing or sprinting twards her target.
i hate to keep using collie as an example but if she was another breed a parallel would be drawn with the collies trademark creep and stare when they work the fields, it looks EXACTLY the same and its quite intimidating if youre on the wrong end of it (for the collies its supposed to scare the sheep)

but because shes a malamute everywhere you read they put it down as "cat like" hunting methods.

[Dutchringgirl]

they are herding dogs and yes, they do herd. I have had a few different breeds and only the herding dogs I have had, herd. Its not an expect to see so thats what it is, its what they do.

[cordeliandemon]

Grand then

[LyonsFamily]

Elli herds. I've done basic instinct testing with her and she routinely herds up my parents' loose dogs when they run away. She helped put away the chickens at night, but they're not great flockers, so I've got ducks on order to try to get something for her to do and see how she does. She actually prefers to herd me in agility when she's moving too fast for me to get me to hurry up and she makes my husband sick while herding him down the hallway. I know her lines and she's definitely not from show lines. This is her pedigree to the best of my knowledge and it doesn't look like anyone was specifically bred to herd, but the traits still remain. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dutch_s ... tellations

Odin, on the other hand, has inherited whatever bull in a china shop traits his ancestors' had. I have no idea where he came from though. He "tries" herding and it turns more into chase and knock down. The only real herding traits he shows is the desire to stare at things and count them when they move and he will try to control and nip children if they're running around.

[LisaV]

My boy definitely herds up my kids if they "stray" too far behind on a walk. This behaviour is different to his very strong prey drive - joggers, cyclists, noisy cars etc. He wants to chase them and will also have a tendency to nip out too. I'm learning a lot about the DS as a breed. I have almost 25 years experience of GSDs both working dogs and pets. All of them also displayed prey drive to varying degrees and a varying degree of herding too.